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Author Topic: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007  (Read 12597 times)

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04-07 Biblestudy

                          DATES TO REMEMBER
              [A short timeline of important Biblical dates]

I brought my Bible, but I may not even use it today, which I have never done that before. Actually I will use it, but I mean I won’t open it. I get a kick out of Joel Osteen. Now I’ve been tuning him in for a minute here and there for I don’t know, I guess five years.  I have never seen the man open the Bible yet, in five years of preaching on international television. Sometimes he will make a reference to a verse… he will say something like, ‘Jesus said to Peter,’ something or other. He will make up reference to a verse, but never opens the Bible. He starts off the program and they all hold up there Bible, ‘this is my Bible, I can do what it says… I believe what it says… I can do what it says I can do,’ and all of that kind of stuff. He goes through that every time. Then he puts down the Bible and he never opens it once during his sermon. Never… well maybe he has, I’m saying I’ve seen him probably hundreds of times and I have never seen him open the Bible.  

[Someone comments: He doesn’t raise his voice either.] No, when you are teaching the feel good religion, you want to get as many cozy people as you can get.  

                                       FRAME OF REFERENCE

I’m doing something a little different today, for me anyway. It’s difficult for me to understand anything over in someplace or in some position or sometime in history if I have no frame of reference. First I have to have a frame of reference. So that is what I want to give us today, a little bit of a frame of reference, dates. The one thing we always hated in school, you know memorizing dates. But some dates are important and we really should know them.

We have a frame of reference as to where we live. We live in Mobile, Alabama, some of you guys live over in Florida or Mississippi. But we have a frame of reference, we live in a house… on a street… in a subdivision… in a town area… in a state… in a position in the state, north or south… among other states, Florida is on this side, Mississippi is on the other… this is in the southern USA… we are in the United States of America… which is in north America… it is paralleled on each side, by the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean… where those oceans end you have Asia, Europe, Africa and Australia down there. So we have this frame of reference.

We know that the earth sits out here in space and has a moon going around it. Then further out there is the planet Mars and then there is Mercury and then there is Venus, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and no longer Pluto, but that little ice thing out there that they used to call a planet. This is all part of a solar system which revolves around a sun, our sun. That’s our solar system, now where are we from there? Well if you go further into space you come to the nearest star, besides ours, which is Alpha Centauri. Which is how far from the earth? Well first of all how far is the moon from the earth? How many think it is more than 10 million miles to the moon?  More than a million miles? You are so lucky, you came here to have this class today…

You know women have there own peculiar talents. My wife is very good at doing stuff like filing out forms and booking a flight on the internet and keeping me on time (she just said). She is just very good at all this kind of stuff. But now my wife is different, she is very mechanically inclined. I mean she could take apart a pocket watch probably and put it back together. But most women can’t, when it comes to mechanical things and spacical things and I don’t know what the reason is. I have known any number of women who thought when they are reading a roadmap… give a woman a roadmap and she starts to panic. Because she doesn’t know how to interpret it. If you are going up interstate 95 or whatever and you want to go over to a town off to the right. So there is highway 212 that goes off to the right to that town and you want her to tell you where to turn, in which direction, on what route.  In many women’s minds or at least several that I have known, let me put it that way. When it says right on a road map in actuality that is like a mirror, it means you actually turn left to fulfill what the map says. Has anybody ever heard that besides me?  [Comment:  Oh yeah.]  

When I was just out of high school I dated this girl once and she was a fun girl and her parents were lovely people. In fact her parents were so much fun, we didn’t go out by ourselves, we always went out with her parents, because they were more fun. I was kidding around with her once and I said how far is it around the world? Now she had graduated from high school, but probably wasn’t paying attention. She thought it was about 350 miles. People just don’t think, it doesn’t even hit them, wait a minute it’s almost that far to Grandma’s house and that‘s not even out of the state.

So anyway several of you said you thought it was over a million miles to the moon. It’s 187,000. What’s the speed of light? [comment: 186,000 miles per second.] Yeah, and I think the moon is 187,000 miles and the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second.  

How many feet in a mile? [Comment: 5280.]  Very good.  

So how far is it to the moon? It’s about a twelfth of a million miles.  How far is it to the sun? 93 million miles. How long does it take the light from the sun to reach the earth. How many thinks it takes seven seconds?  How many thinks it takes more than an hour? Actually it takes about 7½ minutes. How can you prove this? Well you can’t exactly, but you can come close to it. If you are some place where you can watch to sun going down, when the bottom of the sun hit’s the horizon and you time it, by the time the top of the sun hit’s the horizon it would be about 7½ minutes. So of course it takes about 7½ more minutes for those last sun (rays) to reach the earth, and then you have this twilight zone, where it’s kind of defused light and it just slowly starts to go away.

How far is the closest star to the earth, next to the sun? About 4 light years. In other words (when we say the speed of light, 186,000 miles per second), that’s roughly seven times around the world per second, for four years to get to the closest star.  

Somebody has been asking me, in the last few months, about aliens and spaceships and all this stuff. I said there is no such thing as a spaceship. Something made out of material like aluminum, shaped like a saucer that is going to fly here from an alien galaxy someplace? Why? It’s too far, it would take thousands of years. It’s many years to the closest stars, but our closest stars are not known to have any planets. So then you would have to find a star out there that has planets. But you’re too far away, you can’t make it in a spaceship. So that is the end of the aliens, finished, no such thing.

                                  BIBLE DATES AND CHRONOLOGY

Today I want to give you a little frame of reference with dates concerning mostly Bible Chronology. But a few other things too. I’m just going to hit a few big dates, that we really should all know. I thought I could put this together in about 45 minutes, it took me 4 ½ hours last night and another 4½ this morning. Anyway now we are going to look at a few dates so we will have a frame of reference. Because some of you are just going to be off the chart, okay.

We are not going talk about creation, I’m not going to get into the length of creation days. The days, were they eons of time and so on. [Note: this was before the 2008 Nashville conference that discusses these subjects.]

We are going to start with Adam and Eve. But as far as genealogy chronology goes, which it again may not be all that accurate. Because when it says so and so begot so and so and he said unto him you are my son this day, you shall take a wife of this…  He is actually speaking to him and that might be an actual father and son. But sometimes when it says so and so begot, it could have been hundreds of years later. I mean he did begat them down (the generations), but not a direct son.  

Same way in the genealogies of Matthew, for example, let's go to Matthew (I will open my Bible, because I don’t ever want it to be said I had a Bible study and didn’t open my Bible.) You will notice in the genealogy, most of you know this, but if you didn’t it says;

Mat 1:1  The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
v. 2  Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
v. 3  And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar…

It goes all the way through there, that doesn’t necessarily mean in the very next generation. Now it talks about all these generations are so many… that is the generation that were named. All these generations that we have given personal names to.  That doesn’t necessarily mean all the generations that existed in between there, but all that we have now named, all these generations are so many generations.  

When we go over to Luke’s account…

Luke 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
v. 24  Which was the son of Matthat…

If you will notice “was” is in regular roman print, but “the son” is in italics, so that’s not in the manuscript. So he was just “of” this person, not necessarily the direct son of.

If you read my email concerning what people ask about, it was how we have two different genealogies; Joshua was the father of two different people and Mary came from two different lines. Well actually there is an explanation for it.

But let’s look at some dates.

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Now according to genealogy or genealogical chronology, when was that? I’ll throw out a couple of dates, we are going to deal with B.C. (before Christ) dates. Now of course they don’t use B.C. and A.D., they use B.C.E. (before the common era). So they want to make a common era out of Christ’s era, turning Christ into a neutral - nothing era.  Of course that is what it is all about, it’s like that agency that fights everything, the ACLU. It’s like, ‘we’ve got to get Christ out, why do we need Him in there to start our dates.’  

So B.C. (before Christ), when was Adam created?  When you do the genealogy is it about 3000 B.C. or 4000 B.C. or 5000 B.C.? [Comment: 5000?]  We are 2007 A.D., that would make us at 7007.  Wrong.  Actually it figures out right close to 4000.  Bishop Usher puts the creation week at the same time as Adam, at 4004.  

But to keep it simple here is what I did in my list; if the date is exact then you just see the date, if that is as exact as archeologist or historians can put it. If it’s actually a little longer than 4000 years I’ll put a little (+) sign after it. If it’s a little less I’ll put a little (-) sign. I mean if it’s 1,2 or 3 years, more or less I’ll just put a little plus or minus. But I want to stick to these big numbers. Because if you start at 3974, I mean that is just hard to remember. But 4000 and you can go over this thing in your head just a few times a week for a while and pretty soon you start to remember these.  

Here is something else you can do. You open your Bible to Adam and Eve and you put 4000B.C., write it right in there. Then as you look up these Scriptures from time to time and you say, ‘I wonder when this was?’ Well you have a thing in the margin and you will have a frame of reference again, if for example say, when did Isaiah prophesy.  

Some of these dates, I’ll put the exact date that I have from some of my timelines and sometimes I won’t use that, because there are various dates on some of these things. Some of them I’ll only put it a year off one way or the other. Then you will have this, where some will say, Syria conquered Israel in 721 or whatever, but they didn’t conquer them in one year. It was like a four year siege, so you can count it from when they first invaded or when they took control or when they were finally totally defeated. You have a four year spread there. So it depends where you want to put the emphasis of when was Israel defeated.

Okay I’m going to pick another big event. Adam and Eve were born, then we come to the flood.  What year would the flood be? In my mind I always round this up a little higher to another figure in my mind.  [Comment: About 2000 years ago.] Nope. In my mind I always remember the flood as being 2300 B.C., it’s actually 2285. But I put it at 2300 because that is easy to remember. I know Abraham was born in 1995 B.C., I just happen to remember that. But before I remembered that, in my mind I think five years up or an even 2000. The flood is 2300, Abraham born 2000, see it’s a little easier to remember and it’s only off a couple of years. Quite frankly do we know for sure that they are right on anyway? So I’m not teaching you these dates, so that you will know the exact date, I’m teaching you just so you will have a frame of reference. So you will know whether it was 2000 years before Christ or 1000, that’s a pretty big difference. So I just want to give you a general frame.

This is a reasonable facsimile of the chart Ray used.

                                 DATES TO REMEMBER
                   [A short timeline of important Biblical dates]

Things make a lot more sense if we can put them into some sort of a frame of reference.  
Mobile -- south USA -- North America -- earth -- solar system -- Milky Way Galaxy.............

We will start with Adam and Eve and move forward:

Adam and Eve ----------------------------------4000-BC
Cain murders Abel -------------------------------3900-              wheel is
Methuselah is born-------------------------------3250-              invented
Adam dies age 930 ------------------------------3000+               3700
Noah is born ------------------------------------2885
Noah's flood [Methuselah dies at 969] ------------2285
Babel, languages confused -----------------------2150+           copper & gold
Abraham born -----------------------------------1995                 mined
Noah dies age 950 [500 pre&post flood]-----------1935
Sodom & cities burned ---------------------------1900-
Isaac [Abraham's (100 yrs old) first son] is born ---1895
Jacob & Esau born -------------------------------1835
Jacob & Leah have 6 sons in 7 yrs -
[first children of Israel] ---------------------------1777
Joseph viceroy of Egypt [famine ends] -------------1700
Israel prospers in Egypt for 150 yrs ----------------1600           King 'Tut' reigns
Israel slaves of Egypt for 175 yrs ------------------1450            9 yrs - 1350
Moses leads exodus [Ten Commandments]----------1275      
Israel invades Canaan and
walls of Jericho fall --------------------------------1234          Pyramid building
Philistines in Canaan -------------------------------1190              in Mexico
Samson is born ------------------------------------1090
Samuel leads Israel for 40 yrs ----------------------1050-
David born at Bethlehem ---------------------------1034
Saul first king of Israel -----------------------------1025
David king of Israel - rules for 40 yrs. ---------------1000+
David dies at age 69 and
Solomon rules 40 yrs - begins building temple ---------965            Greek writer
Solomon turns all Israel to idolatry -------------------935                  Homer - 800
Elijah & Baal priests ---------------------------------860+
Jonah - Assyria's enemy -----------------------------777         Hanging Gardens
Israel falls to Assyria --------------------------------700            of Babylon,
Babylon takes Judah - Temple burned -                                          Buddha in China
Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah -----------------------------600-            Confucius - 550
Zechariah calls for new Temple -----------------------520
Worship restored by Malachi, Ezra & Nehemiah --------450           Plato in Athens
Books of OT are now called Scripture -----------------350            Socrates 400
Temple built in Samaria and  
Alexander conquers Palestine peacefully --------------333
Egypt rules Palestine 100 yrs., many Jews in Egypt ----300
Septuagint: the law from Hebrew to Greek ------------250
Antiochus III of Syria conquers Palestine --------------200
Antiochus IV defukes Temple - burns the Law and
dedicates it to Zeus ---------------------------------167
Antiochus V rescinds decree against Jewish Law and
Temple is rededicated = Hanukkah --------------------164
Rome rules Judea -------------------------------------64
Herod the Great is made king of the Jews and
rebuilds the Temple -----------------------------------37          world population
Jesus is born -----------------------------------------4-3                250 million
Resurrection -----------------------------------------30AD
Titus demolishes Jersalem & Judea ---------------------70

« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 11:01:51 AM by Kat »


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Re: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 12:44:59 AM »

So we have Adam and Eve at 4000, the flood at 2285 or 2300 is the one I use and they don’t always use these same numbers, they vary. One of the more reputable sources places the flood at 2285 and I up it 15 years to 2300. So Adam and Eve 4000, the flood 2300 and you figure back from the flood how long did Adam and Eve and his descendants go until God wiped the earth out. I mean most of you would never know, but now you know it was about 1700 years. Why that’s a long time isn’t it, 1700 years.

Listen to me this is where it gets amazing, how many pages of history do we have on those seventeen centuries? Let me see and I will tell you how many pages we have… one, two, three, four and a half. Four and a half pages for those seventeen centuries of human history. Four and a half pages, that’s all we have.  Now archeologically they may have dug up some pre-flood cities. They think they have indeed, because they were covered in twenty feet of mud. How in the world would a city be covered in twenty feet of mud, except there was a huge flood of mud to cover up a city twenty feet in mud. So when they go that far down in the ground and find a city or a temple or a house, they know pretty much for sure that this is going to be before Noah’s flood. So we have Adam and Eve and his descendants lived for seventeen centuries and then the flood came.  

Now I’m also going to give you, on the right margin, just a few interesting things. Not necessarily big battles of Europe and stuff like that, but mostly to do with the Mideast and some places scattered. But just something interesting.

Now Cain murdered his brother, how long do you think after Adam and Eve were created did he murder his brother? It was one hundred years, I have a minus so maybe a couple years less. Then two hundred years after that in 3700, we are told by archeologist that something was invented (I just put these in for fun). The wheel. Archeologist and historians put the wheel at 3700B.C., which would be before Methuselah was born.

But we are sticking with the big dates, just a couple of them. In 3000 give or take a few years someone important died. If you don’t think about these things… you think about when it starts and you don’t think about when it is finished. What happened about a thousand years after Adam and Eve was created? Adam died. He was 930 years old. About 3000B.C. is what they say was the bronze age, but I suspect they had bronze before that. Tubal-cain worked in bronze (Genesis 4:22).  

Here is at the time that historians say that the Cuneiform of writing was developed at Sumer Mesopotamia (3000 B.C.). But these are their dates and they don’t line up with the Scriptures, because I don’t think that came into being until after the flood maybe, but who knows.  

Now another big date, Abraham, you ought to know when Abraham was born and lived, this is important date, 1995. Just remember the year 2000. He was born a thousand years after Adam died.

Here is an important one, the exact date 1777 B.C., Jacob and Leah start having the children of Israel. That is when they start baring sons, he had six children in seven years, they spaced them out pretty close. Six children in seven years with Leah, then of course there was Rachel.

Here is a date we’ve got to know, when did Moses lead the children of Israel on the exodus? In that same year they celebrate the Passover and they receive the Ten Commandments. We know that the children of Israel began to be born in 1777, so that is when Israel came about and we know that they lived a while. Then Joseph went down to Egypt and then they came down because there was a famine. After a while they were given land down there and they prospered, but then they were put into captivity for a long time. This bring us down to 1275. There are a couple of different times given in the Scriptures, one actually says a whole lot less in the book of Acts. But I have an explanation, that’s a wrong translation in the King James. That’s why it makes it sound like it is a hundred sixty five years or something and it’s way off.  It’s 1275.  

Now another important date, I’ll give you the date you tell me what happened. So they came out of Egypt in 1275, then what happened in the year 1000 B.C., something very important. I’ll help you out a little bit, I want you to be thinking history - thinking Bible. So when they came out of Egypt, remember Moses and Aaron weren’t allowed to go into the Promised Land, they crossed the Jordan and what is the first thing that they do when they cross the Jordan? They could see what they had to do on the other side up on the mountain and they crossed the Jordan and they did it, what did they do? [Comment: They conquered Jericho.] Yep, they conquered Jericho.

They were suppose to conquer the whole land, drive the people out, the Philistines, the Canaanites, the Ammonites and the Hittites and the Jebusites… and then who ruled them all those years? Who was the ruler? [Comment: It wasn’t a ruler, it was the judges.] Judges, when Joshua died there was judges that ruled for quite some time. Then in the year 1000, something different in the ruling of government, what? They went to a king. There was first a king that is not considered so great, which was whom? [Comment: Saul.] But now we come to the year 1000 and what happened? [Comment: King David.] So that’s an important date. In the year 1000 B.C. King David ruled.

If you remember some of these dates it’s easy to keep stuff in mind. David ruled for forty years, then who ruled? [Comment: Solomon.] Solomon. How long did Solomon rule? Forty years  Some of these are kind of easy to put together, David started in 1000, ruled for forty, he died and Solomon ruled for forty. Remember the 1000, remember that David and Solomon each ruled forty years.

Then we come up to around the year 3 or 4 B.C. we have an important date. [Comment: Christ was born.] Yes. Some put it all the way back to 6 or 7, some put it at the year 0. Now you understand that there is no year zero, but there should be. When you go from minus to plus one, how many years is that? Two, it’s one year this side and one year that side, two years. But year 1 is going into the second year forward A.D., year 1 B.C. goes back to the second year B.C. So how can the dividing line be plus and minus one? That can’t be the dividing line, you have to have a year zero (0). From B.C. 1 to A.D. 1 is two years, you’ve got 1B.C. then zero in one year and 1A.D. is two years. It’s three if you count 1, 0, 1, but we are only talking about how much is the space in between, two years. But the way they date things it’s always A.D. or B.C. I don’t know if you could ever find where somebody dates something as year 0, but there has to be a year 0.  

[Comment: It was an antiquated dating system back then.]  Exactly, it wasn’t that Christ was born and all the historians said, ‘okay now everything before this time is going to be called B.C.’ Before what? Before that little baby over there in the manger in Bethlehem. ‘Well what does He have to do with dating?’ Well just trust me it’s an important event.

I have another important date at 30 A.D. or thereabouts. [Comment: Crucifixion] I prefer to call it the resurrection, rather than the crucifixion, but they both happened in that year.

Another very important date is 70 A.D. and that’s as far as I am taking this, what happened? [Comment: The fall of Jerusalem.] I think a lot of people think of 70 A.D. as the fall of Jerusalem, but it’s the fall of Judea. They wiped out whole towns and villages before they ever got to Jerusalem. So they decimated the whole area, not just Jerusalem. That’s why Christ didn’t say, “when you hear of wars and rumors of wars…” flee to the neighboring towns and cities. No, flee to the mountains, because they are going to get those towns and cities too.

04-07 Bible study video 2

[Comment: What about these notes for the forum?] Well we really have some critical people on the forum. There are some people that will take a date (like the bronze age) and will just make hay out of that, in spite of the fact that I have said that these are approximate dates by historians. These are not iron clad Biblical dates where I say the wheel is invented. But I just don’t like to open myself up too much for that, because then we will get a debate going. Now here’s what happens, I get pulled away from my work all the time. Like with this thing of ordained.


When I wrote seven years ago that God pre-ordained His plan and everything that would happen and so on and so forth, everything that would be said and done and thought was pre-ordained from the beginning of God’s plan. Well unfortunately I was not thinking at that time, when I used the word pre-ordained I was using it in a broad sense, not zeroing in on the Biblical usage often times, of the word ordained. Of course I was brought to task on that. ‘Liar, liar pants on fire Ray, now you are saying that you are not ordained to eat Girl Scout cookies?’ On whatever day I wrote that email I put that I had a couple of these sugar-free Girl Scout cookies. So then for the next week I am just being barraged with all these emails. ‘Well Ray how can you… Ray you just… How can you say, Ray… Ray… Ray…’ I mean like give me a break. As of yesterday I sent somebody another email. I said I’m sorry and I will try to go through this sometime. This is a huge subject, this could take weeks for me to go through.  

First of all I will concede that ordained was not the best choice of words seven years ago when I was talking about this plan. But I guarantee you that I did not have in my mind, when I wrote that, that God ordained dirty old men to rape little girls and cut their heads off. That was not in my mind. Now I apologize if it should have been, but it wasn’t. I was talking about the overall plan of God from beginning to end.  

But you see how people are going to find a problem with ‘Ray’s teaching.’ They are either going to find a contradiction with God or a contradiction with Ray. They will find it and when they do they can say, ‘well the hell with all of this Ray Smith teaching, why he is just another heretic.’

So just a couple of days ago I sent this guy an email. First of all there is about seven or eight words translated ‘ordained’ in the Bible. Different words with different shades of meaning and so on. When for example I said Paul told Timothy or Titus (maybe it was both of them) to ordain elders in all the cities, where there were congregations.

Tit 1:5  For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

When he says “ordained elders,” that word ordained is a word of like sanctification, a special honor on that elder to be a recognized leader among the congregation. That word carries a certain spiritual connotation. We can not then turn around and say, ‘by the way Titus also ordain in every city sexual perverts to rape little girls and cut their heads off, ordain them too.’ Can you not see that we’re talking about two different things, when it come to these word usages sometimes?  

I apologized seven years ago when I did use the word pre-ordained, that I was not thinking specifically about that. But then someone will say, ‘well Ray you were talking about all things.’ What can I say… just take me out and shoot me and then you all can go back to your sinning and your drinking/drugs and your hatemongering. Then you can say, ‘listen I gave Ray a fair shot and he is just a heretic like all the rest, so now I’m free.’  

Now do you think I’m stretching that? I kid you not, I know human nature like maybe few people alive. I just have a little insight, vision of what human nature is all about. I’ve said so many times, maybe it is because God gave me so much, that He has given me a lot to overcome. So I don’t kid myself about why people will just become like sharks in a feeding frenzy when they discover some little thing like this.  

It’s like when Craig Nolin said that time, ‘We don’t die, we never die. That’s correctly translated, if you believe on Him you should never ever (and he put in ‘ever’) die.’ I went around for weeks, I’d take them five or ten pages at a time, going through all his stupid arguments. Then someone on the forum said, ‘I think Craig nailed Ray this time, I think Craig might be right, yep Craig got him.’ After weeks and weeks and maybe two months of all this going around and then he sent Dennis an email where he really opened himself up. That’s the one where I said okay this is my last post and I just totally tore his nonsense to shreds Scripturally. Then reluctantly he said, ‘I apologize Ray I was wrong, of course we die.’ Then I think to myself, I wonder how many on the forum from months before read that apology? Maybe hardly any, who knows. But this is the way things go.

When I put this Bible study together, what could easily be a one year study, to verify all these dates through history and chronology and archeology and genealogy… I could easily spend a year putting this together. But I did it a couple of hours last night and a couple hours this morning, only to give us a frame of reference. But we have those people who are looking for a contradiction and when they find it… if you put this paper on the forum tonight then by Tuesday it’s on Tectonics or whatever that site is, that Holding site. That’s not his real name, his real name is Robert Turckal, he use to work in a prison, now he fancies himself a Biblical expositor or whatever.  

Sometimes I will send Denny an email, I won’t send it to anybody else, just Denny. I send him a lot of stuff, almost everything virtually I send to Denny. He will write back, ‘I see you didn’t send this to the forum? Why didn’t you send it to the forum?’ I tell him because it will open up a can of worms. Here is why, because I know how the carnal mind thinks and I know that there are people reading our forum… I mean don’t you realize by now, after tens and hundreds and thousands of people have shoved my tithing paper in the face of their pastor. Don’t you realize how many hundreds and thousands of people and maybe even thousands of theologian would like to nail me to the cross. They’re looking for that big contradiction and then they will put it on their website. Then people will write me and say, ‘Ray I saw this on this website, how do you explain it? Seems like a contradiction to me.’ Trust me, they will.

Even now… listen I know where there are certain contradictions in my writings. I will just openly confess them right now. Some of them I was bamboozled into, because I didn’t at the time, have time to study 20, 30, 60, 139 doctorial points, in great detail all at the same time. You have to understand I first started studying the Bible seriously seven years ago… seven years ago. Now how do you become an expert on a 139 doctorial issues in seven years? There are theologians that wrote doctorates on these subjects 500-1000 page books, hundreds of thousands of books, for two thousand years have been written on this subjects. Now I’ve got to debunk them in thirty five day or six months in a major article in the Lake of Fire series. I don’t think people consider what is involved in some of this stuff at all.  

I know I’m getting off the subject here, but people are going to hear this in the forum, so I just wanted to talk about a couple of things here real quick. I know people are real antsy and anxious about these installments of the Lake of Fire - Hell, now we are at part D1. Next week we will be posting D2. I have it lined up, but I have so far about 70 pages of material, in basic form like we would post it. But I just don’t want to be rushed and have to have the whole part D posted this weekend, which is the end of the month. Because I said I would try to have this things posted by the end of the month. Well for many reasons, not the least of which is some of this stuff with the forum, where I get in these debates with people. My own family life, I have situations, you think I don’t have problems like everybody else? I could sit down and start telling you some of the problem that God has put in my path and they do take away from my time and so on.

                                  GEHENNA FIRE

Where Christ said;

Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The word is gehenna, “gehenna fire.” Now do you want to explain that? All of you know a lot of stuff about what I know. You all know about no free will… you know about there is no eternal hell… you all know about the salvation of all. I mean you know a lot of stuff, you know there is no immortal soul. You know a lot of stuff that I have taught in the Lake of Fire series.  It’s about seven hundred pages or so by now and you all know that stuff. Well now we come to “but whosoever shall say (to his brother), Thou fool, shall be in danger of gehenna fire.” How so? What does it mean?  

« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 11:11:31 AM by Kat »


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Re: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 12:47:36 AM »

I’ve given up years ago trying to look on the internet to see what theologians have to say about this or that verse, if it is anything spiritual about it.  Sometimes I look to see if I can get some historical background on something, in the same way that I will look at a Bible dictionary.  Because scholars have spent their whole lives researching that.  A Bible dictionary is not the writing of one man, it is the compilation of maybe a thousand different men over two thousand years of time and they put this stuff together.  Anybody can compile a Bible dictionary and use these quotations from different experts on whatever they say about Balaam or the alter or whatever.

But you look under this verse and it’s almost a joke.  First of all they talk around it, they don’t discuss this one aspect of… in what way, how, when or whatever does someone call a brother a fool and he is in danger of hell fire?  What is that?  Okay I’ve known for many many years what it’s not.  I’ve known for forty years, before I started really studying the Bible, like I did seven years ago.  I knew what it was not… I knew it was not eternal torture in a place called hell, I knew that.  

All of these websites like Gary Amirault’s Tentmaker and all of these Universalists, they will tell you what gehenna is not.  They explain that verse by telling you what gehenna is not, this is not eternal torture.  Then they will give you all the Scripture that this is not eternal torture.  Well I have known that for forty years… but what is it?  We know what it is not, it is not eternal torture, what is it?   Just blank.  

Some theologians say, it’s talking about what, in the kingdom of God, in the millennium what the rule of law will be.  Call a brother ‘a fool’ and you will be thrown in this literal gehenna fire.  But I show them that there is a problem there, a couple verses back;

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
v. 18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So now we have theologians say, ‘well yea, all the jots and tittles actually pass, for the last two thousand years.’  No, Christ said they wouldn’t, starting when He said this, there were people in danger of gehenna fire…  How so?  And for us we are in danger of gehenna fire if we call a brother a fool…  What is He talking about?  Do we have any other verses about this?  Well when you go from Matt. 5 over to Mark 9 He says the same parable that He is giving in Matt. 5 He gives in Mark 9.  

Mark 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire:

Now did He have something in mind when He said;

Mark 9:46  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

He didn’t say that over in Matthew, but we know that it is the same teaching at the same time.  It is just something that Matthew didn’t include that little phrase, but Mark did.  Now we know that this gehenna has to do with, “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”  That is a direct quotation from Isaiah, the last verse of the book of Isaiah.

Isa 66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

That is gehenna.  That is a prophecy back in Isaiah 66.  But when does that happen?  Did that happen in the valley of Hinnom at the time of Isaiah or shortly thereafter?  Then why does Christ compare it to a penalty for calling a brother “you fool”?  Now the setting of Isaiah 66, we have this strange verse.

Isa 66:17  They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst…

What in the world is that?  So what I am saying is, if you want to explain Matthew 5:22 “…but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of gehenna fire.”  You can’t explain that verse if you don’t understand virtually the entire Bible.  I’m serious.  You have to understand virtually the whole Bible and the chronology and prophecy or there is no way you can understand that verse.  

I have looked at a lot of websites…  My American Standard Bible, which I like because it has several dozen really good scholars with lots of footnotes on many verses, that have to do with ‘was this in the original Hebrew Scriptures.’  Those are interesting things to learn.  But they come up with this:  

Mat 5:22  but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
v. 23  If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,
v. 24  leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
v. 25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

What is this teaching; 1) whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment.  2) Whosoever shall say to his brother raca shall be in danger of the high council.  3) Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the gehenna fire.  4) Whosoever has something against a brother and does not have it rectified will be put in prison.  They have those four things there.  

So you’ve got these prophecies back in Isaiah and to find out what he is talking about, where the fire is not quenched and the worm doesn’t die.  You go back to these people in the woods who were sanctifying themselves…  what is that?

So when Christ said you will be in danger of gehenna where the worm dies not and the  fire is not quenched has something to do with man purifying themselves… in the garden… in the midst… behind the tree…  

In this next installment I have the various explanations of what that is.  Even the King James margin says, to worship an idol in the midst.  

What I am trying to say in all this, is when I do these things, I am like taking on the whole Christian theology.  I have to be careful what I say, because I don’t want to go back and say ‘oops scratch that one.’   But we are going to have to scratch some areas.  I’ll let the cat out of the bag a little bit on this one, because I’m going to go back and take some of these things out where I was wrong.  

Now I allowed someone in our midst to influence me in a wrong way, because I didn’t have time to look at these things.  I didn’t have time to study every word and every phrase, every sentence, every verse, every doctrine in the Bible, all at the same time in great detail.  This is just unfathomable, so I had somebody that we allowed to put some material on our site even.  Because I thought some of it was correct, even though I had a couple of problems with some things.  I mean the law paper that is no longer up there, I had a problem with that before it was put up and I let it slide, to my own chagrin.  Because I mentioned at the time, but you are not covering in here the aspect that the law is spiritual.   The law of Moses is spiritual!

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual…

It was, ‘no Ray, no that is talking about the spiritual law is spiritual…’  You know I let it slide.  I corrected a lot of stuff in that paper and some of that stuff in that paper was mine anyway.  That long chart of the Old Testament and the New Testament, the old covenant and the new covenant, the differences, it was several pages of material.  But I let that slide.  
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 01:11:01 PM by Kat »


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Re: Dates To Remember . . . . . . . . . . Biblestudy April 2007
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 12:49:18 AM »

                               THE LAW OF MOSES

But when I write about the law one day, I will have to do a paper on the law and trust me you are going to see Romans 7:14.  “…we know that the law…”   What law?  It’s mentioned about ten times in that chapter… “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “the law of Moses…” “For we know that the law is spiritual…”  Oh but we are not talking about the law of Moses?  Oh yes we are, it didn’t changes gears there in mid stream.
Then I was shown this, where it was not something I studied, I was shown.  The Sermon On the Mount;

Mat 5:33  "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
v. 34  But I say to you, do not swear at all…

‘Ray can you see that, where Christ is contradicting Moses and the Old Testament law?’  I looked at that just superficially, I didn’t study it, I didn’t have time.  I’m writing on a dozen other things and answering lots of emails, sometimes working on a Bible study, working on a Bible conference or working on two or three papers at the same time.  Sometimes that’s just for mental diversion, I write these little things like ‘An Encouraging Word About Death’ or  ‘The Kiss Of Death.’  I write those little articles sometimes as just a diversion to get away from the intensity of studying some of these subjects.  It really just becomes mind boggling and I have to cry out to God and say give me some direction here Lord, this is over my head.  Then step by step and He will just… sometimes I’m walking to the fridge to get a cold drink and something I’ve ask God a week ago, ‘what is that?’  Then boom, it’s right there and I wasn’t even writing on it, I’m not thinking about it… boom, I’m telling you it just flashes in my head and there is the answer.  

So I allowed people like that to show me, ‘this is a contradiction Ray, Christ contradicts, the Old Testament says, “you shall perform your oaths to the Lord” and Christ says “no don’t swear at all” that’s a contradiction.’  I said wow yea, okay.  But just superficially, just saying yea okay, that sounds like a contradiction to me.   So doesn’t it sound like a contradiction on the surface?  So I accepted this guy, but I don’t accept this guy anymore, he is history.

So when I’m doing this study for the Lake of Fire part D, I’m in the Sermon on the Mount and I want to know what the whole Sermon on the Mount is about.  Because here is where Christ introduces gehenna, in the Sermon on the Mount.  So I start looking at this stuff; divorce and swearing and resist not evil and love your enemies, these are all contradictions.  At least that is what so and so told me.  ‘Ray these are all contradictions, Christ contradicts the law here.’  

Now I am not going to deny that Christ did not keep the Sabbath, in the way that the Pharisees and so on thought He should and what became custom, certainly.  That is it was very strict, you just didn’t do anything on the Sabbath.  You were allowed to walk from here over to your neighbors house or something, but you could only go so many hundred feet (which was called the Sabbath’s day journey), beyond that you are sinning.  I mean it got so bad that the Jews… to this day some orthodox Jew would tear the toilet paper off (the individual sheets) on Friday, so that on Saturday when they use the bathroom they will not have to actually tear the toilet paper.  This is how ridiculous the carnal mind gets in keeping these laws.

Now I say, Lord You did say a jot or tittle wouldn’t pass, so if this is the law of Moses how are You in Your own words saying nothing shall pass till all is fulfilled and as of this day this and this and this has passed… and here is My new teaching on it that contradicts it?  No no no something is wrong here.  Something is wrong, somebody fed me something that I swallowed hook, line and sinker, shame on me.  Now I go back and I say, Lord show me the truth of this and I start reading.  

It’s amazing when you want to believe something, you just read over the Scripture and you think anybody could see it.  Oh really, let’s take a closer look.  So now I look at Matthew and it says… I’m just going to give you one of them.  I go through all of them in part D (Lake of Fire series).

Mat 5:33  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, You shalt not forswear yourself, but shalt perform unto the Lord your oaths:
v. 34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all…

So that sounds like a contradiction there.  So being the type of person that I think God is making me into now… what did I say for the last years now?  I just try to drum it into everybody’s head?  You’ve got to pay attention to the words.  Don’t assume when you read a phrase that you know what it means, if you haven’t looked at all the words and you understand what the words mean.  

So “you have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, That you shall not forswear yourself, but you shall perform your oaths unto the Lord.”   Well I always thought when I was shown this contradiction that this says you should swear oaths unto the Lord and Christ says don’t swear at all.  But that is not what it says.  The word “forswear” even in my margin has a little 2 and when you go to the number 2 in the margin that goes for the word forswear, it says ‘swear falsely.’  So let’s read it a little more carefully.
Mat 5:33  You have heard it said by them of old time, that you should not swear falsely yourself, but you shall perform (that means to do, to carry out) unto the Lord your oaths:

So I searched back in the Old Testament to see where we are suppose to swear oaths unto the Lord.  There is no such place in the Old Testament that says you should swear oaths unto the Lord.  There is no such Scripture in the Old Testament.  So here is what it says and it’s so simple.  If you take it upon yourself to be so foolish to think you can swear something and then make it so… like I swear on a stack of Bibles, oh I guess you will never tell a lie then, if you swear on a stack of Bibles.  Wow if you had swore on one Bible maybe you would lie, but if you swear on a stack of Bibles ain’t no way in hades you are going to lie, right.   So it says in the Old Testament if you make an oath, IF you are stupid enough to do that and make oaths that you can’t carry out and everything else.  If you make an oath unto the Lord you better not lie to God about it.  Don’t lie to Him.

Don’t say I’m going to make an oath,  oh I don’t know what… say I’m going to reframe from sex for one month and just worship you Lord.  Then by the second day your wife takes a bath and puts some perfume on and then you say, ‘you know what, it was just something that I said with passion of the moment when I wanted to sound holy and pious, so honey come here.’

That’s all it says, if you swear an oath for whatever, you better not lie.  Don’t lie to God is what it says.

This is the very thing for which God struck dead Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10).   People don’t get it, Ananias and Sapphira sold some property and they gave some of the money to the Apostles to help the cause.  How good is that?  Well that’s good.  Well what was wrong with it, why did He strike them dead?  Because they made everybody think that selling this parcel of land for say $80,000, but then they gave $10,000 to the Apostles and kept the other $70,000.  They lied about giving this money.  They gave some, but they held back.  That is all that Christ says, don’t lie to God.

But what he said was, listen you want to cut this off at the pass?  You want to not have this problem?  Don’t swear at all!  This is so simple.  Jesus Christ is not contradicting the Old Testament, He is not.  No where does it say you should swear oaths to God.  But if you do you better not lie.  Okay, simple, and it is with all of them.

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

I was assured… but I didn’t have time to study all of this stuff, that this was what the Old Testament said and taught and I bought it.  Because it sounds like what Christ is saying.  Moses says you should hate your enemy, but I say love your enemy.  Totally different, right?  Wrong pale face.  Show me a Scripture where God or Moses ever said you should hate your enemy.  There is no such Scripture where God or Moses taught Israel to hate their enemy.  Well then what is He talking about?   “You have heard it has been said,” but then He says this phrase “by them of old time”…  well that is in at least one of them.   But here it only says, “you have heard it has been said,” it doesn’t say by them… “you have heard it said,” because I only know of one who said it.  

Who said you should hate your enemy?  Who said they hated their enemies?  He said it like it was a godly thing to do.  King David did.  We know he hated his enemies until the day he died.  He told Solomon to kill them and make it bloody (1 Kings 2:9).  That was his death wish.  This is the spiritual lesson he learned from God, hate your enemy, kill them and make it brutal and make it bloody, ‘Amen Lord, I can die now.’  I’m not trying to belittle David, I’m saying he never got quite spiritually converted.  He hated his enemy and wanted to kill them.  John says no murderer has eonian life abiding in him.

                                   EONIAN LIFE

1John 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian) life abiding in him.

So if David died without having any eonian life abiding in him, then he’s not going to be in eonian life, in the resurrection to rule with Christ.  He is not going to be there.  

You have to have had this eonian life already abiding in you when you die or you are not going to come up in that resurrection to reign with Christ, you’re just not.  See that’s the hope that we have.  We have this earnest, which is a down payment until we get the full amount.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So in a sense Christ was saying don’t be like David who took hatred of his enemies to his death bed… I say love your enemies.  He didn’t say Moses taught that, He didn’t say God taught Moses to teach it, no.  So I had to rethink and have God redirect my whole mind on some of this stuff.  

I know some place back in the Lake of Fire I’m talking about this contradiction of the law and I’ve got to take it out, it’s wrong.  It’s heresy and I have got to take it out.  Certainly the emphasis of what I’m talking about is not wrong, it’s just these little ideas that I use to back up whatever I was talking about has to come out, it’s wrong.  This is not a contradiction of the law of Moses, in what Christ is teaching here.  It can’t be, because He said a jot or tittle will not pass from this.  If the Old Testament said you should swear and Christ said you should not swear, then a couple of jots and tittles have passed, have they not?  He said they wouldn’t.  You’ve got to be consistent… the sum of God’s word.
When you start studying the sum of God’s word, all of this nonsense that I was fed is all falling by the wayside.  I was talking to Denny and I said I’m trying to think, what he came up with that was actual truth (anything of any real consequence), that number one he didn’t just borrow from me, that I do teach about.  God is creating, it’s a process, they teach that now, because I taught them that.  Adam and Eve committed all the sins in the book before they partook of the fruit, they teach that now, because I taught them that, all the way down to many of these things which I have brought out.  The other things that I was shown (by them), just one after another heresy, heresy, heresy.  That is why that material is no longer on our site and that individual is no longer part of

So I’m not and have no aversion to admitting and changing things that I was wrong about.  I thank God we are not throwing the baby out with the bath water, it’s just some bath water has to go.  We will get rid of it and we will be better and stronger for it.  

I know that was a slight diversion from study on chronology, but you know I speak as the spirit moves me, what can I say.

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