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Author Topic: divorce?  (Read 4755 times)

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bible man

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divorce?
« on: May 28, 2009, 01:38:15 AM »

are there any grounds for divorce?(in scriptures that is) lol!
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 02:52:47 AM »

are there any grounds for divorce?(in scriptures that is) lol!

Yes i believe their is one or two... not 100% sure. Paul talks about it, i know that. What verse or chapter? Well.. can't tell you that one :P
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aqrinc

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 03:29:43 AM »


bible man,

Here is an Excerpt from: What is Marriage: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.msg45929.html#msg45929

It would do you well to read the entire paper, it is not very long and should clear up other similar questions.

Mat 5:31  It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
v. 32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.

So Jesus did not even contradict the aspect of divorce, you know when they came to Him and said, can a man divorce for any reason.  He said that if you put away your wife or divorced her, except it be for a cause of fornication or immorality - ‘porneia’ is the word, then you cause that person, if they go out and find another mate, then you cause them to commit adultery.  You had no right to divorce that person. 
Now He doesn’t say it specifically, but you can deduce, you know you can lawfully, legally and rightly deduce from what is said, something that isn’t said.  If you shouldn’t divorce for that, “except for fornication,” that means for fornication, you can divorce.  So if Jesus Christ is putting His approval on a certain aspect of immorality where divorce can be involved, than He is also backing up the fact, that it was a legal marriage until the divorce came about. 
Jesus does not contradict divorcement.  If adultery is involved, Jesus okays the marriage of a divorced person.

george. :)

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Samson

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 01:38:22 PM »

are there any grounds for divorce?(in scriptures that is) lol!


Hello Bibleman,

                    Below is a response by Kat on an old Thread on Divorce which includes a response by Ray
that might help you, also helps define Porneia, the Greek Word translated to our English Fornication or
immorality or Sexual immorality as expressed at Matt. 19:3-9 & Matt. 5:31,32(The one George brought out).
As you will see, the Greek Porneia has a broad meaning and isn't limited to just sex outside the Marital bond.
Please read the old post with Rays explanation below in blue color.


 Hi Extol,
             
           
You understand that Christ is speaking of the spirit of the law here.  Just as He said in;
Matt 5:22 "whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment" and v. 28 "whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" also v. 32 "whoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery" 
These are all speaking of the spirit of the law, that the believers are held to a higher standard of keeping.  Believers should not hate anyone, they should not lust even in their heart, and they should not divorce.  These spiritual laws can only be kept by those who have Christ indwelling.
So divorce is not something to be taken lightly at all.  But it is not unlawful in scripture.  A person is not bound to a terrible marriage relationship.
I found this email on divorce.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2774.0.html -----

Divorce:  The only way that Jesus said one can leave a mate and/or marry another is if there is "pornia" present (called 'forniction') in the King James.  Pornia means "prostitution," but it can also mean a host of sexual immorality.  Also, Paul tells us that if a man will not provide for his own family, he is "WORSE than an infidel." The same is true of a man who deserts his family, or abuses his wife or children. In such cases of "immorality" a mate should not be considered bound.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



                           Hope this helps, Samson.
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bible man

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 06:13:49 PM »

Thanks foe all responses but i must disagree!  Let no man put asunder,and paul said seek not to be loosed seek not!!! is a command when I or any of you seek for justified means todivorce we sin  SEEK NOT!! 
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Ninny

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 06:35:27 PM »

Bible man,
God is merciful. Were you sincere in asking or are you just trying to argue with someone? The Bible makes it plain that the only way God stands for divorce is because of unfaithfulness of the marriage partner. He also tells us that if you decide to stay then stay...If the one is a believer and the other isn't if it pleases the unbeliever to stay with the believer then stay....

If you take time to read the scriptures then you can figure these things out it's pretty clear cut. If you LOOK for a reason to divorce then God doesn't recognize it. These things are not that hard. So tell us if you sincerely want the facts or if you just want to disagree!
Kathy ???
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Marky Mark

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 06:44:23 PM »

Email to Ray.Hope it helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7413.0.html

Dear Max:  There are a hundred good reasons why I don't get involved in counseling people in divorce and remarriage situations and other legal matters.  One ends up in the same situation as Paul called "endless genealogies."  I assume you may be referring to your own marriage with this question?  Okay, so you marry a woman who was not legally divorced based on her husband committing adultery. They just divorced for whatever reasons. Now then, are you legally married to her and is she legally married to you?  Well........has her husband remarried?  Cause if he did, then he IS committing adultery, seeing that your divorce was apparently not legal in God's eyes.  So now that he is married (legal or not) to another and having sex (adultery) with another woman, she could not legally divorce him on grounds of adultery. But you are already divorced, he is now married, and she now married.  Okay, suppose her husband is not remarried and is not committing adultery, then what?  Should she legally divorce you according to the laws of the law, and remarry her old husband if he will have her?  What if he really does WANT HER?  And what if she really decides that she did love him and wants to divorce you now and remarry her old husband?  Can they do that?  (In "God's" eyes?)
     
    What if you die, and your present wife who is not legally divorced because there was no adultery in her first marriage, wants to remarry a third man, and the third man is legally divorced because his wife did commit adultery, can she marry him if her first husband will not take her back, even though he never did commit adultery on her when they were married?  But what if your wife really did commit adultery in her first marriage, but her first husband forgave her and didn't want to divorce her, but she wanted to divorce him, because she felt guilty for betraying him? Can she divorce him if it was her who committed the adultery, and then marry you?  I could go on like this for hours and hours.
     
    It's just more "endless genealogy," and I won't get involved in it. Furthermore, NO ONE will divorce their mate if they love them, no matter WHAT I would say, so this whole conversation is pretty close to pointless.  Furthermore, I don't believe that I have ever had anyone tell me the absolute truth when asking me to "settle" such convoluted marital situations.
     
    Listen:  You cannot UN-ring a bell.  Sometimes it is not possible to go back and straighten out all of the convoluted mistakes we made in life and such things as marriage and remarriage. Repent for what you have done and for what you are and GO ON with you life.  If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes.  Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too. I hope this has been a little helpful to you.
    God be with you,
    Ray





Peace...Mark
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hillsbororiver

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 06:50:37 PM »

Thanks foe all responses but i must disagree!  Let no man put asunder,and paul said seek not to be loosed seek not!!! is a command when I or any of you seek for justified means todivorce we sin  SEEK NOT!! 

Hi bible man,

Kat is giving you sound advice, look a bit deeper before coming to conclusions.... Disagreeing with any of us is fine (as long as it is inpired by a search for Truth) but disagrreing for the sake of argument is boring and unfruitful.

Mat 5:31  It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
 
Mat 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 19:6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Your quote, but please read on)
 
Mat 19:7  They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
 
Mat 19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
 
Mat 19:9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Peace,

Joe
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bible man

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 08:03:35 PM »

bros and sisters in christ please dont misunderstand my search for truth based on how i "word" questions i have been blessed greatly by many answers,but i am troubled by the fact scriptures i have presented may have been ignored.  please dont take my post as words of strife..        heres the scriptures you asked for   1cor7:28  seek not,not means to no degree!   Rom 7:1-  SAYS BOUND TO DEATH!  Are we to ignore these truths??  LOVE U GUYS
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firefly77

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 08:23:31 PM »

Dear bible man,
I usually don't get involved in debates of this kind at all. If you already know the answer to your question, why did you ask in the first place? I don't understand. Please clarify. Thank you,
Angie
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daywalker

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 08:32:41 PM »

bros and sisters in christ please dont misunderstand my search for truth based on how i "word" questions i have been blessed greatly by many answers,but i am troubled by the fact scriptures i have presented may have been ignored.  please dont take my post as words of strife..        heres the scriptures you asked for   1cor7:28  seek not,not means to no degree!   Rom 7:1-  SAYS BOUND TO DEATH!  Are we to ignore these truths??  LOVE U GUYS


So.. are you implying that the Scriptures you presented "contradict" what Christ said?

Mat 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


These are the words of Christ, right? He's not saying that you should divorce if your spouse cheats on you, he's just saying it's allowed to. These don't contradict your Scriptures, though you may think they do..

Let's see if I can clear it up for you:

When a man and woman become married, they each make a "vow" to each other. They make a "covenant"--which includes not having sexual relations with any other person "tell death do they part"...

Okay, now, when one of them goes out and fornicates with someone else, he/she has now BROKEN THE VOW. The "covenant" that he/she made has now been made VOID. Thus, the reason God allows for a 'divorce'--because the Covenant has ALREADY been broken.

Now, that doesn't mean you HAVE to get a divorce. It means you are 'allowed' to--and it won't be held against you.


You already have your answer, you are just unwilling to accept it. May God guide you,

Daywalker.  8)
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kenny

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 01:47:00 AM »

This is one subject that bears witness to many and it is a hard subject because it has hardened many hearts and will continue to until this age ends
Jesus' words;Mar 10:5  And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mar 10:6  But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
 In the beginning it was not so, Man(humans) came up with that one (divorce), to cover up his hard heart,"period".



 
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bible man

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 02:30:59 AM »

Kenny, you hit it on the head!     from the beginning it was not so!!   bound until death,not bound until someone cheats!    by the way romans 7  still has not been addressed,nevermind why i asked the question, what about til death do us part.   I WILL CHANGE THE TOPIC DUE TO RUFFLING SOMEBODYS FEATHERS lol!
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aqrinc

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 03:47:39 AM »

bros and sisters in christ please dont misunderstand my search for truth based on how i "word" questions i have been blessed greatly by many answers,but i am troubled by the fact scriptures i have presented may have been ignored.  please dont take my post as words of strife..        heres the scriptures you asked for   1cor7:28  seek not,not means to no degree!   Rom 7:1-  SAYS BOUND TO DEATH!  Are we to ignore these truths??  LOVE U GUYS

Kenny, you hit it on the head!     from the beginning it was not so!!   bound until death,not bound until someone cheats!    by the way romans 7  still has not been addressed,nevermind why i asked the question, what about til death do us part.   I WILL CHANGE THE TOPIC DUE TO RUFFLING SOMEBODYS FEATHERS lol!

bibleman,

Please do not make sport of things you do not yet understand, just to satisfy some desire to win an argument. I laid out Romans 7: 1-18 for you to read, then please state what exactly you are contending against that anyone here is condoning. The Law is Spiritual And Good, we, all of us are carnal and as such our righteousness is accounted as filthy rags.

Where is the Scripture that Says There is no bill of divorce available for adulterers or adulteresses. Several posters have already addressed your questions, yet you say not so.

Humans did not come up with that Law, it was written for humans because GOD Knows The END From The BEGINNING.


Btw, bm, have you been married and divorced?.


Isa 64: 4-7 (MKJV)
4  And from forever they have not heard, nor did they listen. Eye has not seen a God except You, who works for him who waits for Him.
5  You meet him who rejoices and works righteousness, those who remember You in Your ways. Behold, You were angry, for we sinned. In them is eternity, and we will be saved.
6  But we are all as the unclean thing, and all our righteousness es are as a menstruation cloth. And we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7  And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs up himself to take hold of You. For You have hidden Your face from us, and have melted us away because of our iniquities.
 

Rom 7: 1-18 (GNB)
1  Certainly you will understand what I am about to say, my friends, because all of you know about law. The law rules over people only as long as they live.
2  A married woman, for example, is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives; but if he dies, then she is free from the law that bound her to him.
3  So then, if she lives with another man while her husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is legally a free woman and does not commit adultery if she marries another man.
4  That is how it is with you, my friends. As far as the Law is concerned, you also have died because you are part of the body of Christ; and now you belong to him who was raised from death in order that we might be useful in the service of God.
5  For when we lived according to our human nature, the sinful desires stirred up by the Law were at work in our bodies, and all we did ended in death.
6  Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died to that which once held us prisoners. No longer do we serve in the old way of a written law, but in the new way of the Spirit.
7  Shall we say, then, that the Law itself is sinful? Of course not! But it was the Law that made me know what sin is. If the Law had not said, "Do not desire what belongs to someone else," I would not have known such a desire.
8  But by means of that commandment sin found its chance to stir up all kinds of selfish desires in me. Apart from law, sin is a dead thing.
9  I myself was once alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life,
10  and I died. And the commandment which was meant to bring life, in my case brought death.
11  Sin found its chance, and by means of the commandment it deceived me and killed me.
12  So then, the Law itself is holy, and the commandment is holy, right, and good.
13  But does this mean that what is good caused my death? By no means! It was sin that did it; by using what is good, sin brought death to me, in order that its true nature as sin might be revealed. And so, by means of the commandment sin is shown to be even more terribly sinful.
14  We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin.
15  I do not understand what I do; for I don't do what I would like to do, but instead I do what I hate.
16  Since what I do is what I don't want to do, this shows that I agree that the Law is right.
17  So I am not really the one who does this thing; rather it is the sin that lives in me.
18  I know that good does not live in method is, in my human nature. For even though the desire to do good is in me, I am not able to do it.

George. :)

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Kat

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2009, 10:31:19 AM »


Here is an excerpt from the article no. 16 - D3 Hell, 'The Sermon On The Mount is for You,' maybe this will help.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm --------------

[2] "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shall not commit adultery" (Matt. 5:27). 

Yes, this one is also found in the Old Testament Law of Moses (Ex. 20:14). 

"But I say unto you, that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt. 5:28).

But that statement is not found in the Old Testament.  It is still a sin to commit adultery, but now it is also a sin to just "look on a woman to lust after her."  And just "looking to lust," if not repented of and cut out, carries the penalty of  "...your WHOLE BODY should be cast into hell [Gehenna]" (Matt. 5:30).  That penalty is not in the Old Testament Law, but it is the new spiritual Law of JESUS, THE JUDGE!  Jesus will spiritually judge this sin with spiritual fire.

[3] "It has been said [yes, and it is in the Old Testament too] Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.  Jesus did not contradict this law.  Jesus did not do away with this law; it is still in effect.  But Jesus does expound upon it. 

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery..." (Matt. 5:32)

That is not in the Old Testament Law.  Jesus did not say that there no longer is divorce, and contradict or do away with this law, but He did enlarge it.

Jesus did not say: "But I say unto you, you can never get a divorce," did He? No, He didn't, but He did bring out the spirit in this law.  It was there all along, it's just that the carnal-minded Israelites didn't see it or get it.  Yes, you can still get a divorce for "any reason" in most countries of the world.  But you can't be Jesus' disciple if you don't obey the spiritual intent of the law which was there from the beginning.  Jesus taught that it was always God's intent for a husband and wife to stay together and never part (Matt. 19:4-6). Even  "...EXCEPT it be for fornication..."  people should not divorce.  They can divorce, and they won't be "causing her to commit adultery,"  but that doesn't mean that they should divorce.  Try to forgive and work it out, but if not, then on these grounds, one can divorce.
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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firefly77

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2009, 12:03:09 PM »

Kat,
Thank you so much for your post. It really spoke to my heart and in a way I felt God's forgiveness extended to me in an area where I was convinced I had failed Him in the worst sense and was therefore not able to serve Him anymore in any way, shape or form in the future... Last not least, for the sake of following the law, unable to ever get married again.
My last marriage failed because I divorced my husband... He was emotionally abusive to me and especially to my son. He pounded scriptures into our heads about submissiveness and his rightful place as the head of the household and everybody had to fall into line after him. When he forgot to do something, he made a mistake... when I did, I sinned according to him. In my heart I started despising him and the internal conflict about wanting to do it God's way and yet wanting to get out of an oppressive abusive marriage caused me to become very ill. Not only did my husband berate me, but I did to myself as well. I finally filed for divorce mainly to protect my son and to get physically and emotionally well again.
It has been 8 years now... I am not happy about what I did because I ended up putting this "imaginary" wall up between God and me, which still stands to this day. I feel I have failed terribly and in a way feel very responsible for the way the relationship turned out. As for him, he got married again a year later. In fact, while we were still living under one roof and the divorce was pending, he had already found a new "wife" on an internet dating site. He would tell me 5 or 6 times a day, "I love you!"... Every time I heard these words, I shuddered.

It comes down to us not having a clue what "I love you" really means. You will never keep somebody's love and respect if you DEMAND it. They may say it to your face to appease you, but the heart knows the truth.

As for bible man... According to your interpretation of the scripture, I would probably be dead now, and my son would not have a mother.

May God inspire us all to love His way...
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Ninny

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2009, 12:16:43 PM »

Bible man, No one is disagreeing with the fact that God said what He said! You asked are there in grounds for divorce in scripture! Why would you ask if you weren't looking for an answer? You aren't ruffling anyone's feathers! There have been feather-rufflers here before they come and go! BUT does God change? NO! In the Old testament if someone was caught in the act of adultery, he or she was stoned end of story..marriage vows annulled! Victim of the unfaithful one free to marry again! God doesn't mess around!
Your scriptures are disjointed and pulled right out of context with nothing to back them up! Law, law, law... are you bound by law or are you free from the law? The problem with our mindsets these days is that we grab one scripture and build a whole doctrine on it! I'm not condoning divorce or trying to find excuses for it! I have been married only once and have been married for almost 38 years so I'm not trying to defend anything in my own life...

Now if my husband were to cheat on me I could do one of two things 1) couldn't stone him! I'd go to jail! I could forgive him and go on with life and expect him not to do it again! or
2) I could divorce him and go on with my life... I haven't done anything wrong or ungodly either way! God doesn't change! Would you stay with a person who refused to be faithful to you? there is an old saying that says, "I may continue to love you, but I DON'T have to live with you!" God doesn't command us to LIVE with a cheater!  You figure the rest of it out!
Kathy
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Marky Mark

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2009, 01:16:17 PM »

I just would like to add that as we learn of the Spirit[and Spirit is life] we also learn that the things of the letter[die, just as the flesh]. No matter what sin is committed in the flesh,they are all the same.We can and do sin, some being worse than others, but still, sin is sin. We are sinning machines and if not for the Grace of God we would ALL still be in a full fledged quagmire of filth and destruction sinking and sinking ever deeper into that filth.For by Faith we all have Hope and that Hope is to be a righteous child of God,only when HE sees fit to drag us to the Truth in all matters Spiritual. All is of God!!!  Believe It!!!


Peace...Mark
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daywalker

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2009, 01:59:38 PM »

Kenny, you hit it on the head!     from the beginning it was not so!!   bound until death,not bound until someone cheats!    by the way romans 7  still has not been addressed,nevermind why i asked the question, what about til death do us part.   I WILL CHANGE THE TOPIC DUE TO RUFFLING SOMEBODYS FEATHERS lol!


Bibleman,

The only feathers that are being ruffled is yours. You asked questions. You were given many SCRIPTURAL answers. It is only you who wishes not to accept them. You are not taking all the Scriptures into consideration--instead you are selecting a few, and ignoring the others which testify alongside with them.

How is it that you refuse to accept the plain statements of your LORD on this topic of divorce [Mat 5:32, Mat 19:9]?  ???

I know: YOU DESPISE IT. That's why. For whatever reason you are unwilling to accept what Jesus Christ said in response to your question. Sorry, but the Truth stings a bit sometimes [I know from personal experience...]


Have a good one,

Daywalker.  8)
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mharrell08

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Re: divorce?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 02:09:04 PM »

Alright, this subject has been beaten into the ground enough.



Marques
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