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Author Topic: Paradise  (Read 13131 times)

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chrissiela

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Paradise
« on: June 08, 2006, 02:12:35 PM »

I was reading this email:


Quote
Hello Ray:

I have E-mailed you a few times over the last couple of years and you have always been gracious enough to reply.

I was telling a Christian Lady Friend of mine that when you die...you are DEAD and await judgement day and at some point will THEN go to Heaven and that you do not automatically go to Heaven when you die (Hey, am I hired?!)

She brought up the thing Christ said on the Cross. I DID read your reply to this question you sent a reader awhile ago. I must admit that if I was standing there on the Mountain while Christ was crucified and I HEARD him utter "Today You shall be with me in Paradise" the first thing that would come to my mind would NOT be a debate on where the comma should be placed...I would take Christ at his Word. Secondly, Christ DID use the word "Paradise". My questions are two-fold..... If "Paradise" does NOT mean "Heaven", than what does it mean?.....and # 2 why then DID Christ use the term "Paradise"? With most of your writings I feel you are 100% right-on....but I must admit I am "not seeing the light" on this issue. In your reply to the reader I mentioned you seem to fluff over the whole issue of "Paradise" and talk about other matters (and I agree with your logic...to the point where I irritate my men's group and they say I should stop reading your Web site! !!) . I must admit what happens to one when you die still bothers me a bit.....I want to agree with you but then again Christ clearly says NO man is good...so the ultimate judgement is that NO man passes...so once again it is left to Christ's Grace saving mankind (in which case why the delay in joining him?).

Help!

Scot


Dear Scot:
I would think that no less than 50 times over the years, I have said that I will (some time in the FUTURE) write a paper on this. This is NOT a priority with me. There are many more important subjects that I mujst write on before I do a paper on this subject. If a short 3 or 4 sentence answer is all that is needed, I would have done that already in the dozens and dozens of emails I have received on this question over the years.

It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context. Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He? No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise." But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant. Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.

But is this what theology does? No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN." Oh really? That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.

DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."

There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9). And what else is that Garden of Eden called? Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).

[1] The "Garden of Eden." Was that garden, "heaven?" What did we find in that garden: (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).

[2] The "Garden of Gethsemane." Was that garden "heaven?" What did we find in that garden? (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden, (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.

Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you? I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD

This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.

God be with you,
Ray

Ray said:

"DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven."

and:

"Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?"

So what of these verses:

    2Co 12:2-4  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
such an one caught up TO THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/list:u]

How is paradise not "heaven" when it says here that it is the "third heaven"?

These are the three verses in the NT scriptures that mention "paradise" and when I read them I see CHRIST, who is seated IN HEAVEN at the right hand of God.

    Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be WITH ME in paradise.

2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of THE TREE OF LIFE, WHICH IS IN the midst of THE PARADISE OF GOD.[/list]

God planted a GARDEN God put Adam (man) in His garden (to grow):

He buried His treasure in the field (world/garden?) and the field is "ripe for harvest" and the "angels are the reapers" etc

There is good seed sewn by the Son of Man and bad seed sewn by the wicked one, the enemy, the devil.

God, the Father, is the "true" husbandman (farmer, land worker).

Christ is the VINE, we are the Branches; TREES bearing good or bad FRUIT, etc, etc, etc,


How ironic that Christ was mistaken for the "gardener" at the tomb:  :D

    Joh 20:15  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She,
supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.[/list]


Christ told the thief that he would be WITH HIM in PARADISE.

This man Paul "knew" was caught up into PARADISE. (also called the "third heaven")

The Tree of Life is in the midst of the PARADISE OF GOD.

I see Paradise as the Kingdom of Heaven (or the Kingdom of God); where Christ IS. Where the Tree of Life IS.

And truly I see CHRIST as all of these things: The Tree of LIFE, the Book of LIFE, Eternal LIFE, the BEGINNING, the END, the SON (of God), the PROMISE (of God), the PARADISE (of God), to name only a few.

We will ALL be WITH HIM in Paradise!!


What am I missing here??

I was going to ask Ray directly, but decided not to since he said many times that he will not write on this until some time in the future, having other more important things to write about now.... so until then.... thought I would ask here...

Chrissie
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 11:24:05 AM by Chrissie »
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Daniel

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2006, 03:17:40 PM »

Great post Chrissie, I too have been wondering on these things, "spiritual with spiritual. Heres some other considerations I have thought on. We are Gods feild, His husbandry, His work as He works within us to both will and do His good pleasure. Garden of His delight perhaps? The Seed, His word planted in us will not return void but accomplish all that He desires and that we be perfected in His love.

Considering "paradise" in the verses you set out and being with Him in paradise we know it was not the death of the physical body needed to be "caught up" to it. To me its like our minds, these tombs needed to "be opened" by His Spirit to possibly "conceive" Gods thoughts which are "higher" then ours. So "Come up hither" is as the power or strength to "conceive" a thought of His. As Paul says, who knows that thoughts of God but Gods Spirit? But we have been given the Mind of Christ to "conceive" what is most inconceivable to "those who love Him". Love defines as being "obedient to His commands". Interestingly enough "these have a right to enter in" to the very paradise of God.

Heres some comparable places to "consider" some not having the words "tree of life" and others which do and I can see the "oneness" of us with Him in these things.


John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, "THERE" ye may be also[/u].

HE is "THE DESIRE" who "comes"

Prov 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: BUT WHEN "the desire" cometh, IT IS a tree of life.[/u]

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/u]

To overcomers

Rev 2:7 Rev 2:7  To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is "in the midst of" the paradise of God.[/u]

Some did overcome

1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[/u]

This is interesting

Prov 11:30 The fruit of "the righteous" IS a tree of life;...

John 12:26  If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, THERE shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.  

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; "no more can ye", except ye abide in me.[/u]

Prov 15:4 A wholesome tongue IS a tree of life[/u] (wholesome words of Christ)

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[/u]

Then notice this, interesting... an entrance is "ministered to one" only HE can open

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/u]


2Peter 1:1 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Rev 21:25 And the gates of it "shall not be shut at all" by day: for there shall be no night there.[/u]

Darkness is "called night" in Genesis both used interchably

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:[/u]

And just as there is "no night" THERE and the gates are not shut BY DAY[/u] (HIM)

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of "THE DAY": we are not of the night, "nor of darkness".

As a spiritual city, or house. Becoming the holy habitation of God. So that the "true Greater is HE" that is "within us" is greater then he who is in the world. We might be "in the world" but no longer of it anymore as we walk by His light, which is to walk in love, the evidence of God dwelling in us and with us. No night in the city being expressed in revelation and John in spiritual truths that become our reality in Christ.

Just a few verses I have thought on and was truly blessed of them.


Daniel
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mercie

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2006, 03:28:38 PM »

This is Interesting Ray mentions this here

Quote
Quote:
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."  





2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter

This  is not the paradise Ray describes to Scott.


It would be interested to see Rays response in Full to this.
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2006, 03:28:45 PM »

Quote
Garden of His delight perhaps?


Funny you should say that... know what Eden means??

Chrissie
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eutychus

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2006, 03:32:04 PM »

perhaps third heaven means complete?


perhaps  paul saw heaven in its completeness
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2006, 03:36:41 PM »

I see it much that way, Daniel.

Entering into that city, that New Jerusalem, leaving the darkness (NIGHT) behind and entering into the "Day", being seated with Him... that where He is we may be also...etc, etc, etc.

Chrissie
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2006, 03:41:46 PM »

Quote from: mercie
This is Interesting Ray mentions this here

Quote
Quote:
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."  





2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter

This  is not the paradise Ray describes to Scott.


It would be interested to see Rays response in Full to this.


Hi mercie,

Yeah, I completely skimmed right OVER that part... missing it completely until I went back and re-read it. Maybe I SHOULD write to Ray, just for clarification on that?? As it seems to me that there is a reference to heaven in relation to paradise (as I stated in my first post)... I just didn't notice, at first, that he said there was none??

Chrissie
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2006, 03:43:31 PM »

Quote from: eutychus
perhaps third heaven means complete?


perhaps  paul saw heaven in its completeness


Certainly he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter".... must have been SOMETHING ELSE!!  :D

Chrissie
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eutychus

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2006, 03:45:48 PM »

only three hits Click Verse for Commentary Notes
 
Lu 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Co 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Re 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


which comes from:

Pardec TWOT - 1808
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
par-dace'      Noun Masculine  
 
 Definition
park, preserve, enclosed garden,((( forest ))) :wink:

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called (((trees)) of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Eze 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done [it].





sooooo much more to this

love ya's
euty
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eutychus

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2006, 03:50:50 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Quote from: eutychus
perhaps third heaven means complete?


perhaps  paul saw heaven in its completeness


Certainly he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter".... must have been SOMETHING ELSE!!  :D

Chrissie




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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2006, 03:59:23 PM »

Mar 8:24  And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.



 :wink:
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2006, 04:00:39 PM »

Quote from: eutychus
Quote from: chrissiela
Quote from: eutychus
perhaps third heaven means complete?


perhaps  paul saw heaven in its completeness


Certainly he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter".... must have been SOMETHING ELSE!!  :D

Chrissie






Feeling a bit overwhelmed there, euty???   :o  

Chrissie  :D
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eutychus

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2006, 04:01:53 PM »

[/quote]

Feeling a bit overwhelmed there, euty???   :o  

Chrissie  :D[/quote]


no, just like the lil purple guy
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Becky

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2006, 04:03:17 PM »

he's making me sad!  :(  :D
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2006, 04:06:52 PM »

    Mat 3:10  And now also
the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 12:33  Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.[/list]
 etc, etc, etc...

wonder what it means that

    Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and
Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.  :lol:  :lol: [/list]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 11:27:51 AM by Chrissie »
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Daniel

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2006, 04:11:48 PM »

Hey, does not "come up hither" mean the same as ascend? Just curious because I don't know.

Then again doesnt ascend mean to come down?

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

He was the only one who came out from God, ever try to capture the mind spin on this? Of Him who ascended be it FIRST that he descended into the lower parts of the earth.

I'm having a brain fart
 :lol:
Daniel
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Becky

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Paradise
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2006, 04:17:50 PM »

yea if heaven isnt a physical place , what the heck is going on in these verses.... i havn't figured them out yet!
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chrissiela

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2006, 04:26:55 PM »

    Rom 10:5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

    Rom 10:6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart,
Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Rom 10:7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Rom 10:8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;[/list:u]

We need NOT ascend OR descend.... for the kingdom is WITHIN... He is NIGH, even in thy mouth and in thy heart.

Chrissie
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mercie

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2006, 04:29:53 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela


We need NOT ascend OR descend.... for the kingdom is WITHIN... He is NIGH, even in thy mouth and in thy heart.

Chrissie

Sound word Chrissie.
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Daniel

  • Guest
Paradise
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2006, 04:56:31 PM »

Amen Chrissie, it speaks of "the wisdom" the descendth from above after the spiritual fruit it bears. Wouldn't that be Christ (the tree of life) in us? If the "Fruit" of the righteous, IS a tree of life and we cannot bear fruit of "ourselves" it seems so. None is good but God and God is love. The good fruit comes from abiding in Christ Him abiding in us that we bear fruit unto God. If a tree is "known by its fruit" then it is also known by its children, the children of the Kingdom. Would have to be the "manifestation of the Sons of God". Truth in us and us walking in the truth is walking in love. He gave us power "to become" and as He is so would we be "in the world".

Its more then geography here, these are spiritual words signified expressing spiritual truths. Thats how I'm seeing it right now.

Peace

Daniel
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