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[Ninny]

Remember that saying from maybe the 60's or 70's?
I was having some thoughts this morning thinking about the way God works in this world...
You know those two little kids I asked you to pray for the other day..the little boy, Tucker passed away early on Sunday morning. The little girl Megan is given no hope from the doctors and is just being made comfortable until she dies...sad, but God is in control.

Now I get an email from my sister in Arizona and she tells me her husband who is a complete alcoholic, last week he bought a 30 pack of beer, a gallon of whiskey, a gallon of vodka, and a gallon of wine...he drinks it all by himself and yesterday he had to replenish his supply! I told her I wonder if he has any brain cells left! the doctor told him last year that his liver is ok??? He's been drinking since he was about 20 years old and he's 64 now!! HOW is his liver OK?? I told her that his brain is irreparably damaged from the booze! His daughter thinks he has Alzheimer's, don't you have to HAVE a brain, first??

I know there are recovering addicts on this forum and I love all of you deeply, but I just think it is so sad when the innocent ones (like little children!) suffer for no apparent reason and some people just do the drugs and alcohol and there is no reasoning with them about it! I guess there is no comparison to the two! Then there is my other brother-in-law who smokes like a freight train and just had something removed from his throat this morning and the doctor said "I'm sure it's cancer." Two years ago he had a growth removed from the same place and it was benign! Is this just God's way of doing things?? I think I would have begun to get off of cigarettes 2  years ago thinking that maybe I had been given a second chance!!

HOW MANY DEGREES OF STUPIDITY ARE THERE???
So do I sound uncaring?  I guess if I DO believe, which I DO, that God is in control and has everything planned from the beginning, then these things are all a PART of the plan! It's crazy!! I've either had too much coffee today or I need some more!! Life is just weird! 
Kathy

[NoviceBeliever]

Kathy:

I can understand your frustration with addicts/addiction.  It is sometimes unfathomable to think of all the pain caused by this destructive behavior.  Unfortunately, understanding about why this happens has never been revealed to me.  I am saying a prayer for you. NB

[Roy Coates]

Nothing worse than seeing innocent people die in a horrible crash and the responsible driver walk away un injured because he was drunk(18 years of law enforcement I saw a few). Life is risky, fragile and not fair. Your in my prayers along with those beautiful kids and their family. The alcoholic even. My God grant healing, peace and comfort to those in need.

Roy

[Ninny]

thanks, guys!
Kathy

[bambam]

Hello Kathy,

I don't get it either.  Especially when these same drunks go to court and fight their guilt.  They did it and there is no doubt, but they don't plead guilty-they get a lawyer and fight to get a lesser sentence or thier freedom.  My children were with a friend of mine for a weekend while my hubby and I were away.  They were in a mini van on their way home from Chucky-Cheeses, and they were T-boned by a drunk driving woman who had ran several stop signs, hit one car, kept going, and then ran a stop sign and hit my friends and my children.   I'll never forget that phone call-we were five hours away that night.  That was the longest journey home I've ever taken.  We have four children and all of the things going through my mind I cannot even begin to relay here.  But my oldest and youngest were not severly injured.  My third oldest broke his thumb and was very sore for a few days.  My second oldest suffered a traumatic brain injury, and was in a coma for four days.  He made it out okay.  It took probably six months for him to get back to his old self-and he has only minor difficulties.  My friends husband had a concussion, and her daughter broke her pelvis. Her and her son were not injured.  My friends, and my kids are miracles to me.  I'm glad it was not there time to go.  But this woman took several months of our lives away as we went through the trauma after the accident.  I don't have the answers-I do know that God was in control of all of it that night.  I don't know why it happened, but I know there was a reason.  I know that God has vessels for both honor and dishonor.  He uses all that happens and all that people do to bring about his plans.  And sometimes his plans don't feel so good.  But I am comforted by the fact that they are HIS plans and not this drunk woman's plans.  She might have been evil, but God meant it for good.  He is working all things out for the good. My heart goes out to the family of these children!!  I can't even imagine their heartache!  But God has a reason for drunk drivers, and for the accidents they cause.  I hope you can find peace in that.

Hugs to you,
Beth     

[EKnight]

There but for the Grace of God go I.


Eileen

[Ninny]

We can ALL say that for sure!
Kathy 

[Roy Coates]

I second what Eileen said

[lauriellen]

this has been a subject that has been on my mind alot, since i have started reading all of the material on this website.  it is VERY hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that all of these TERRIBLE things that happen are actually planned by God and carried out as His WILL!....if i am understanding Ray's teaching correctly........
it almost seems like a good comparrison how "we" would say to ourselves, "how good a God of love burn and torture people in hell for all eternity?".......but they could also say to "us"....."how could a God of love
put a child or parent through such agony on purpose?".........
does anyone have any further insight on this subject that could put this in better perspective?  just having a hard time with this one.
peace to all,
lauriellen

[Marky Mark]

this has been a subject that has been on my mind alot, since i have started reading all of the material on this website.  it is VERY hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that all of these TERRIBLE things that happen are actually planned by God and carried out as His WILL!....if i am understanding Ray's teaching correctly........
it almost seems like a good comparrison how "we" would say to ourselves, "how good a God of love burn and torture people in hell for all eternity?".......but they could also say to "us"....."how could a God of love
put a child or parent through such agony on purpose?".........
does anyone have any further insight on this subject that could put this in better perspective?  just having a hard time with this one.
peace to all,
lauriellen

And passing by, he saw a man blind from birth,

and his disciples asked him, saying, `Rabbi, who did sin, this one or his parents, that he should be born blind?'

Jesus answered, `Neither did this one sin nor his parents, but that the works of God may be manifested in him'" - John 9:1-3

"But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.  If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." - 1 Cor. 12:24-27


 
Romans 12:1-3

1  I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
2  And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
3  For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.



Peace...Mark

[bambam]

Romans 8:18(KJV)  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 9:22-23(KJV)  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:  and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

James 4:14(KJV)  For what is your life?  It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

Romans 11:33(KJV)  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!  how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out!

Romans 8:28(KJV)  And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


Things I know for sure-
*Life is short.
*Suffering hurts, but compared to our future, it also is short.
*There is a definite purpose for suffering.
*God is in control of it all, and his wisdom and knowledge is rich, and his judgements are unsearchable!
*We just have to trust him that he really is working all things for the good like he says he is.

Hope this helps  
Beth

[Ninny]

I have to say this much...The parents of these kids who are sick give all the glory to God! They always say how God used their children to touch people in ways they wouldn't even think of. It is hard to keep our eye on the whole picture when our view is so limited. I have always said that this life and this world is like a big puzzle. God moves each piece of the puzzle in His way and in His time. We can only view our small piece of the puzzle, but God has the lid to the puzzle box! (with the whole picture on it!)

In my own human understanding I will never understand how things work or why...Why a person would drink, do drugs and a thousand other destructive behaviors, when the answer to wholeness lies in God! It is God's plan and I don't understand it! I know that one day it will all be revealed although some things are just WAY beyond human comprehension in this age...

If there were any words to describe the peace I get from KNOWING, not necessarily understanding, that EVERYTHING is under God's control, I don't know what they are and people wouldn't understand it anyway! So we keep all these things in our hearts and we just sit here and love each other and thank God that there are those who feel the same way. We are just a small group of people of the many groups of people in the world, but I thank my good sweet God every moment of the day for each of you, I love each of you so much, you are the best friends, sweetest companions and fellow travelers anywhere to be found!!! Have I told you lately that I love you?
Kathy

[lauriellen]

for me it is almost like each day, i wake up, and i decide (or God does rather) to put on my "armor" and do mental warefare.....to decide to trust God, to fight off doubt and negative thoughts, and keep my eyes on God.  but, when everyone speaks about the "drunkard" or "drug adict",  we really can't judge them or put the blame on them, if God is working through them to accomplish his plan.  Like i have read, everything we do is a "caused" choice according to God's will.  this revelation has REALLY changed the way i look at people in general.  i had little or no sympathy for lazy people, drug addicts, ect, because i always thought that "they made their own bed, let them lie in it.", but now i learn, these are "caused" choices.  My son who died spoke with me 2 days before his accident about the "mind war" going on with him.......about how he wanted to do right (on the one hand), but that it was like he had another voice inside him saying, "no, this way is much more fun."   I am to understand now that he had no chance to resist if it was God's will and plan?
i don't mean to keep harping on this one point, but it is just soooooo hard to understand sometimes.
lauriellen

[Ninny]

lauriellen,
there is comfort in the fact that your son wanted to do what was right. That is a sign that God was dealing with him and he was wanting to do that which was good and right. That is a huge blessing! the sad part is that so many just don't care. Your son sounded like he did care! Praying for you!
Love
Kathy

[aqrinc]

Hi lauriellen,

GOD Causes,

Psa 68:6 (MKJV)
God causes the lonely to live at home; He brings out those who are bound with chains; but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

2Co 2:14 (MKJV)
Now thanks be to God, who always causes us to triumph in Christ, and He revealing through us the odor of the knowledge of Him in every place.


We still choose.

Jos 24:15 (CLV)
and if wrong in your eyes to serve Yahweh--choose for you to-day whom you do serve; --whether the elohims whom your fathers served, which [are] beyond the River, or the elohims of the Amorite in whose land you are dwelling; and I and my house--we serve Yahweh..

Php 1:22  (MKJV)
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose.

george.

[Kat]

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

God's sovereignty is a really hard thing to come to grips with.  But we know that this is God's creation and His Spirit is what sustains EVERYTHING.

Col 1:16  for in Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

For me it's not hard to realize that God must control all things to be sovereign.  Now as we live our lives the suffering sometimes is so great, but actually God has designed how much a human being is to bear.  We have limits as to what anybody has to suffer, we lose consciousness with to much pain and die when the body becomes too damaged.  This is really very merciful, far more so than the church teaching of eternal torment.  He also designed our emotions so we feel sadness, sorrow and fear, God gave us these feelings to learn from, we also have good ones to learn about happiness, joy and love.  This life is a learning experience, not that the actual experience itself is important, but what we can gain from it in character.

1Peter 4:12  Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you;
v. 13  but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

Our lifetime here is so short, "a vapour," - something unsubstantial, fleeting or transitory.

James 4:14  For what is your life?  It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

Rom 8:18  I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
v. 19  For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;
v. 20  for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of Him who subjected it in hope;
v. 21  because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lauriellen]

just one more thing on this subject, and i will shut up (ha)......it seems to me that if God WANTED or it was His WILL that we overcome any given situation, He would provide the circumstances and strength to bring it about......just look at all the examples of people in the bible that God told to do something, and they didn't necessarily want to do it, but God drew them (i am thinking about Jonah) to do it even against their will..............because He had something He wanted them to do......
but other people, God just isn't using in that way, or He is using as a negative example to effect positive change for someone else.......maybe
at any rate, i think it gets down to the point of the universal question of all mankind.......WHY DOES GOD ALLOW SUFFERRING.............and i just think that we will never understand most of the time........His reasons are WAY WAY above our understanding.....
for me personally, it makes me VERY sad on the one hand to see so much sufferring for so many people, but on the other hand, i also have joy that comes from the hope i NOW HAVE FROM THE THINGS I HAVE LEARNED HERE, that God is going to make it all right in His time.......
i had read years ago that you could live X many days without food, and you could live X many days without water, and you could live X many minutes without air, but you could not live a second without hope.  i think this is very true.  thank God for that hope.   bye for now

[Dave in Tenn]

Consider too that one person's caused choice becomes the cause of another person's choice.  It's a chain of events dating back to the beginning in unfathomably intricate connections that all come out of God.

[Dave in Tenn]

just one more thing on this subject, and i will shut up (ha)......it seems to me that if God WANTED or it was His WILL that we overcome any given situation, He would provide the circumstances and strength to bring it about......just look at all the examples of people in the bible that God told to do something, and they didn't necessarily want to do it, but God drew them (i am thinking about Jonah) to do it even against their will

.

That's true to an extent, but they did what they did because something changed thier mind to believe God and obey Him, and it became their will to do it.  That's faith, and repentance.  That's by grace too...a gift of God we cannot 'work up' on our own...the influence of God that sometimes seems 'supernatural' and sometimes just seems more 'common'.  It's all of Him whether it feels like a miracle or not.   

[aqrinc]

lauriellen,

See if these 2 verses make more sense to you now.

Php 2: 12-13 (CLV)
12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,
13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

george .