Genesis 19 vs 30-38

[Sandyk]

Hey Everyone,

Do not understand these verses.  This is very confusing to me.  I know the cities were destroyed is this why Lot's daughters bored his children.  If they were the only ones on the mountain how did he not know these were his children being born?  Who are the Moabites and Ammons to this day? 



Gen. 19;30  Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him, for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar.  And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave.

Gen. 19;31  Now the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth "to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth.

Gen. 19;32  "Come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father."

Gen. 19;33  So they made their father drink wine that night.  And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

Gen. 19;34  It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, "Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father."

Gen. 19;35  Then they made their father drink wine that night also.  And the younger arose and lay wih him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

Gen. 19;36  Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father.

Gen. 19;37  The firstborn bore a son and called his anme Moab, he is the father of the Moabites to this day.

Gen. 19;38  And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Benammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day. 



It just does not seem right that a father and daughter have sex and bore children together.  To be quite honest I don't like reading it and don't understand why God would let this be the case.  The old testaments are very confusing to me and I would rather read the New Testament.    

I have hesitated to post this but it has been on my mind for sometime.   

[Ninny]

Reading that just kind of makes you want to throw up, huh Sandy? Not everything in the Old Testament is pretty!!

Kathy

[Sandyk]

Thanks Kathy,

I get really hung up on verses like these.  Nice to know I am not the only one. 

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Sandy & Kathy,

From what I have read in regard to the Moabites & Ammons they would be in present day Jordan.

Lot was the only man to be deemed "righteous" in Sodom and/or Gomorrah, his two daughters (women are often symbols of the church), defiled their "righteous" father resulting in the births of peoples who would be antagonistic toward Israel (symbol of the chosen/elect).

Haven't the churches defiled Him by defiling His Word? Are they not antagonistic toward those who seek His Truth? 

But out of this unholy union and the resulting enemies of Israel came another "woman" her name was Ruth (perhaps a symbol of the true church).

This is only food for thought, we must always keep in mind that God does use evil for ultimate good, it may appear to us as strange, even bizarre but some day when we receive our full inheritence we will understand why it had to be this way.

Peace,

Joe     

[Ninny]

Thank you Joe! I knew there was a spiritual meaning as well.. 
Kathy

[Sandyk]

Joe,

Thank you so much.  As Kathy said in previous reply about knowing, there most be a spiritual message as well.  This is what I was searching for.  Is this because I am reading in the flesh and not in spirit?  I wish I had posted this earlier.  This is very humbling for me.  I am such a babe.  God has so much for mean to learn. 

I really can't tell you how much I appreciate you posting that reply, it has been an eye opener.   

[hillsbororiver]

Hi again Sandy and Kathy,

First off I want to say you are both very welcome and that I am glad that my observation was of some help. I am surely not saying that my answer is the definitive answer to this as we know the scriptures speak on many levels.

One very important thing I have learned here is to search for Christ (also the elect to a lesser degree) in all scriptures as they all do testify of Him, His plan and His purpose for all creation.

Peace,

Joe

[mharrell08]

Hi again Sandy and Kathy,

First off I want to say you are both very welcome and that I am glad that my observation was of some help. I am surely not saying that my answer is the definitive answer to this as we know the scriptures speak on many levels.

One very important thing I have learned here is to search for Christ (also the elect to a lesser degree) in all scriptures as they all do testify of Him, His plan and His purpose for all creation.

Peace,

Joe

Great point Joe...and the scriptures agree:

Luke 24:27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-45  ...He [Jesus] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

John 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Marques

[Amrhrasach]

Hi again Sandy and Kathy,

First off I want to say you are both very welcome and that I am glad that my observation was of some help. I am surely not saying that my answer is the definitive answer to this as we know the scriptures speak on many levels.

One very important thing I have learned here is to search for Christ (also the elect to a lesser degree) in all scriptures as they all do testify of Him, His plan and His purpose for all creation.

Peace,

Joe

Great point Joe...and the scriptures agree:

Luke 24:27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-45  ...He [Jesus] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

John 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Marques

Thank you Marques.  I've been looking for that verse, John 5:39.   I've wondered what it means, this part:

"for in them ye think ye have eternal life"

Does this point back to the pharisee's and scribes, in that, they were loyal to the scripture but not to Christ and therefore he's saying ONLY IN ME is eternal life and that the scriptures can only testify of him? 

Gary

[mharrell08]

Thank you Marques.  I've been looking for that verse, John 5:39.   I've wondered what it means, this part:

"for in them ye think ye have eternal life"

Does this point back to the pharisee's and scribes, in that, they were loyal to the scripture but not to Christ and therefore he's saying ONLY IN ME is eternal life and that the scriptures can only testify of him? 

Gary

Not quite...it's impossible to be loyal (spiritually) to the scriptures and not to Christ...for the scriptures testify OF Christ.

John 5:37-40  And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Christ told them that the scriptures testify of Him...the scriptures (God's Word) does not abide in their heart, and is why they don't believe in Him. The Pharisees and Scribes did not believe that it is through Jesus (whom the scriptures DO testify of) that one obtains eternal (eonian) life.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Amrhrasach]

Yes, thank you.

Gary

[bunnylife]

Who are the Moabites and Ammons to this day? 

I was doing some research on this part which does have to do with Ruth. As far as the first part ..well I remember my dad reading to us children and my dad got to that part and my mom... gave him that look and we skip to the NT.

Here are scriptures that shows where or what happen to the Moabites and Ammons.

When the Israelites entered the Promised Land, after their 40 years wandering in the Exodus, the land of Moab was the first territory they conquered. God had commanded them to totally exterminate the former occupants of the lands they were to settle: and in Moab, they did so. At that time Sihon, King of the Amorites, had conquered and occupied the kingdom of Moab, and was its ruler when the Israelites came in. Scripture confirms this, in Numbers 21:26-31, we read: 'For Heshbon was the city of Sihon, King of the Amorites, who had fought against the former King of Moab, and taken all his land out of his hand, even unto Arnon ... Woe unto thee, Moab! Thou art undone, 0 people of Chemosh: he hath given his sons that escaped, and his daughters, into captivity unto Sihon, King of the Amorites ... Thus Israel dwelt in the land of the Amorites'

he Israelites then conquered the land of Moab, killing all the people they found therein. We read in Deuteronomy 2:32-34: 'Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the Lord our God delivered him before us; we srnote him and his sons and all his people. And we took all his cities at that tirne, and utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones of every city, we left NONE to remain'.

From here, the Israelites advanced northward into the land of Ammon. Numbers 21:33-35 describes it: 'And they turned and went up by the way of Bashan: and Og, the King of Bashan, went out against them, he and all his people, to the battle at Edrei. And the Lord said unto Moses, Fear him not: for 1 have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon, King of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was NONE left alive: and they possessed his land'.

In Deuteronomy 3:12-16, Moses tells us: 'And this land which we possessed at that time, from Aroer which is by the River Arnon, and half Mount Gilead, and the cities thereof, gave I unto the Reubenites and to the Gadites. And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half Tribe of Manasseh .... And unto the Reubenites and unto the Gadites I gave from Gilead even unto the River Arnon half the valley, and the border even unto the River Jabbok, which is the border of the Children of Ammon'.

In Judges 11: 12-26, three hundred years later, we find evidence that the Israelite occupation of the lands of Moab and Ammon was still unbroken. 'And Jephthah sent messengers unto the King of the children of Ammon, saying, What hast thou to do with me, that thou art come against me to fight in my land? And the King of the Children of Ammon answered unto the messengers of Jephthah, Because Israel took away my land when they came, up out of Egypt, from Arnon even unto Jabbok, and unto Jordan. While Israel dwelt in Heshbon and her towns, and in Aroer and her towns, and in all the cities that be along by the coasts of Arnon, three hundred years, why therefore did ye not recover them within that time?'

So from these scriptures it was the Israelite that occupied the land. We are aware of God's Laws concerning marriage between Israelites and members of other races. Therefore I would say that Ruth came from the land of Moab but was in fact an Israelite and did not violate God's law. The Book of Ruth is that it confirms the system of the Kinsman Redeemer, as given by God to His people. This system of God's Law enabled Boaz to carry out God's purposes with Ruth as Boaz's wife. This resulted in the formation, following God's choice, of the Royal House of David from which Israel's national Redeemer, Jesus Christ was born the Savior of the World.

The short version is they don't exist as a race. Many preachers tell this story with people thinking Ruth was by race a Moabitess which would conflict with God's law. God doesn't make mistakes or violate His law. And I agree with the others about Lot's daughters and Ruth.. which lead us to our Redeemer.. Christ Jesus - Savior of the World.

Bunni

[hillsbororiver]

Many preachers tell this story with people thinking Ruth was by race a Moabitess which would conflict with God's law. God doesn't make mistakes or violate His law. And I agree with the others about Lot's daughters and Ruth.. which lead us to our Redeemer.. Christ Jesus - Savior of the World.

Hi Bunni,

You are absolutely correct God makes no mistakes nor does He violate His laws, it is us, humanity who makes mistakes, misunderstand and misinterpret His plan and purpose. Christ taught us that God's Law is spiritual not physical.

There is a deeper spiritual message represented by the life and actions of Ruth than traditions, bloodlines and national identity. 

Are there any scriptural witnesses to show us Ruth was an Israelite? The scripture appears to be clear here but perhaps I have missed something.

Ruth 1

1Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.

2And the name of the man was Elimelech, and the name of his wife Naomi, and the name of his two sons Mahlon and Chilion, Ephrathites of Bethlehemjudah. And they came into the country of Moab, and continued there.

3And Elimelech Naomi's husband died; and she was left, and her two sons.

4And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

22So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning of barley harvest.

Ruth 2

1And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.

2And Ruth the Moabitess said unto Naomi, Let me now go to the field, and glean ears of corn after him in whose sight I shall find grace. And she said unto her, Go, my daughter.

21And Ruth the Moabitess said, He said unto me also, Thou shalt keep fast by my young men, until they have ended all my harvest.

Ruth 4

5Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.

10Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

I am familiar with certain Christians who made the claim that Ruth was not a Moabite, doing linguistic somersaults of supposition because of Jewish challenges to the genealogy of Jesus and the point of the Jews was that He could not be the true Messiah because Ruth (Moabite) was in His bloodline. (Matt 1)

Peace,

Joe

[aqrinc]

Sorry for getting in a little late, but i did remember reading this part about not all the moabites were killed. And please remember, this is the physical report, look for the Greater Spiritual meaning and lesson in these Scriptures.

Remember, GOD Works all things together For Good, to them that believe; and all will believe in due time, that is the larger picture.

Num 31: 13-21 (GNB)
13  Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army.
14  Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war.
15  He asked them, "Why have you kept all the women alive?
16  Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the LORD. That was what brought the epidemic on the LORD's people.
17  So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse,
18  but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins.
19  Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured.
20  You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood."
21  Eleazar the priest said to the men who had returned from battle, "These are the regulations that the LORD has given to Moses.

george.

[bunnylife]

]Hi Bunni,

You are absolutely correct God makes no mistakes nor does He violate His laws, it is us, humanity who makes mistakes, misunderstand and misinterpret His plan and purpose. Christ taught us that God's Law is spiritual not physical.

There is a deeper spiritual message represented by the life and actions of Ruth than traditions, bloodlines and national identity. 

I do understand that there is a deeper meaning to the story of Ruth. I guess since coming out of Babylon church, the Lord has open my eyes and I was one of those told by preachers or lead to believe she was Moabite by race. I do get angry at the lie not the people. I do know they are blind.

The Kinsman Redeemer was only able to redeem only within the Kinsman's own race. The Kinsman Redeemer was a type/shadow of our Lord Jesus Christ. He was at the appointed time by Father God to become Redeemer and Savior of the World. re·deem  (r-dm)
tr.v. re·deemed, re·deem·ing, re·deems
1. To recover ownership of by paying a specified sum.
2. To pay off
3. To set free; rescue or ransom.

"But God will Redeem my soul from the power of the grave for he shall receive me. Selah" (Psalm 49:15).

We that believe on Christ now are spiritual Jews (circumcision made without hands) and part of the family of God being made into His image. The rest (including The Mobites and Ammons) will too become spiritual Jews and part of the family of God. Kinsman's own race - all spiritual Jews.  Our Lord Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. I don't have all the knowledge of all the types and shadows. I don't have to understand it all to be His child. When He is ready He reveals what He wants me to know. But what I do know is the Jesus Christ is Love.. he was back then, and now and in the future.

Hebrews 13:8 (YLT) 8 Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages; 

The law God gave was spiritual. He knew that know one could not obey it. It was to teach us we are sinners (the beast). Some of those in the OT knew about the promise of the Holy Spirit. We now receive that promise and by the spirit of God we can obey the law being transform into His glorious image. It is a beautiful Love story of Father God and Jesus Christ Love for us (humanity).


Bunni 

[hillsbororiver]

Amen Bunni!

Very well put, there is nothing I can add to this in regard to the spiritual. But I still maintain that the scriptures are clear that Ruth indeed was a "Moabitess." 

Peace,

Joe