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[ez2u]

I just finished reading Lake of  Fire 4
What a blessing  i just want to say,  different parts of it , how it is written, you can feel the Love of God in the writing and the love of the truth.
Now I have a question  i understand about  how Jesus was not made sin  i got that  but what i am wondering is  with his flesh and his spirit when was he perfect?  from the beginning or after his resurrection?  peggy

[mharrell08]

I just finished reading Lake of  Fire 4
What a blessing  i just want to say,  different parts of it , how it is written, you can feel the Love of God in the writing and the love of the truth.
Now I have a question  i understand about  how Jesus was not made sin  i got that  but what i am wondering is  with his flesh and his spirit when was he perfect?  from the beginning or after his resurrection?  peggy

Jesus is/was/will be always perfect as His Father is/was/will be always perfect...as God is perfect, Christ is as well seeing that Christ is the 'express image' of God. Christ is not His Father but He also is not 'independent' of His Father in that He does not do anything of Himself.


John 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Cor 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

John 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


Hope that helps,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Peggy,

Just thought I would add these Scriptures.

2Cor 5:21  For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin (offering) for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1Peter 2:22  He committed no sin; no guile was found on His lips.

1John 3:5  And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

To me these Scriptures seem clear that Jesus Christ never sinned.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[deftarchangel]

Not to be contentious, but is being sinless the same as being perfect?  I was always of the belief that Christ was, in fact, not perfect, but was made perfect through the suffering He endured (which extended even up to His crucifixion, which means that He became perfect after His resurrection).  Our definition of perfect and God's definition of perfect, not surprisingly, could be miles apart!:

Hebrews 2:9-11
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.  Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverent submission.  Although He was a son, He learned obedience from what He suffered and, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

I could be wrong though, and welcome any corrections to this belief.

   

[mharrell08]

Not to be contentious, but is being sinless the same as being perfect?  I was always of the belief that Christ was, in fact, not perfect, but was made perfect through the suffering He endured (which extended even up to His crucifixion, which means that He became perfect after His resurrection).  Our definition of perfect and God's definition of perfect, not surprisingly, could be miles apart!:

Hebrews 2:9-11
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.  Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and He was heard because of his reverent submission.  Although He was a son, He learned obedience from what He suffered and, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

I could be wrong though, and welcome any corrections to this belief.

   

Sin means to 'miss the mark'...but 'miss the mark' of what? To miss the mark of perfection...to be sinless is perfection.

Remember, Christ 'emptied' [Gk. kenoò] Himself of all deity or divinity...He then asked His Father to give that glory back to Him.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Phil 2:6-9  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation [Gk. kenoò], and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [KJV]

Phil 2:6-9  who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name [ASV]

Remember, Christ does not even SPEAK independent of the Father...that's how 'One' they are. Christ is the express image of the Father in every single way imaginable...and as the Father is perfect, so is the Son. The Father speaks through the Son.

John 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 5:29  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[crystal]

Hi Peggy

I might be jumping into deep water here, without any scuba gear as Kenny suggested,but here I go.

Luke 22:19
" This is My body which is given for you;"

Hebrews 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; 6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFCES FOR SIN YOU HAVE NO PLEASURE, 7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, OH GOD.' "

Hebrews 9:13
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through His eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

My question would be what made Jesus Christ the perfect and acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world in the eyes of God?
The purpose of the Son of God and Son of Man.

Is it not that He being the Son of God, essentially being One with the Father, the exact image and likeness of the Father in spirit, therefore being perfect in spirit --- being born of a women, born in the form (earthy tent, flesh and blood) of a man, having an experience of the flesh, learning obedience through suffering in the flesh, yet without sinning. Making Him the perfect and exceptable sacrifice for sinful humanity.

The exsperience of the flesh, yet without sin (perfect) which made a exceptable sacrifice unto God.

[crystal]

Sorry Peggy I accidentally hit the post button instead of the preview button to check for mistakes. Hope theres not to many. 
I hope I've been helpful.

Your sister in Christ,  Crystal

[ericsteven]

Hi all,

Perhaps this may add something to the discussion.

The Greek word translated ‘made perfect’ in the two Hebrew Scriptures is teleioō (G5048).

Here is Strong’s definition for that word:

      1) to make perfect, complete
         a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

Here are a few other verses that use this same word teleioō to show how it can be understood.

John 4:34   Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish [teleioō, complete] his work.

John 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished [teleioō, completed] the work which thou gavest me to do.

Acts 20:24   But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish [teleioō, complete] my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

In fact, here are more Greek words found throughout the New Testament that are related or used in a similar fashion.

G5046      teleios
G5047      teleiotēs
G5048      teleioō
G5049      teleiōs
G5050      teleiōsis
G5051      teleiōtēs
G5052      telesphoreō
G5053      teleutaō
G5054      teleutē
G5055      teleō
G5056      telos

If you look up all their definitions, none of them carry the implication of moral perfection.  They all have more to do with either something that is being finished or completed, whether it be someone’s life, purpose, works, etc…, or becoming spiritually whole or mature.

Jesus’ life was a process, much like ours is.  Sure He didn’t sin, but He did have to grow and learn how to be spiritually whole/mature just like the rest of us. 

Hebrews 5:8   Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

That process of learning obedience was completed in His death and resurrection.  He became the Saviour of the whole World.  He was completed.  He was completed for us, to show us what we must endure in order to be found worthy to be as He is at His return.  Yes, there is still work for Him to do in His second coming, but it’s not like many Christians believe -  that the work that the Father did in Jesus was not completed, resulting in Jesus becoming the Saviour of only a few men.  No, He has been completed; the salvation of all men is a done deal.  It is now only a matter of reconciling the creation with that which was already completed in Jesus’ death and resurrection to life.

Based on that, the verses from Hebrews you quoted could be translated as such:

Hebrews 2:10    For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation complete through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9   And being completed, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus was definitely perfect in that He was sinless from the beginning, but it was through His sufferings that He was made complete for us.

Hopefully that makes sense,

Eric

[deftarchangel]

That makes perfect sense, Eric.   

Thanks.

 

[ez2u]

Eric   thanks that's what i was i was beginning to see to but wanted confirmation.  I knew he was sinless  but i was seeing a process thanks all   peggy