> General Discussions
Forever and ever
aqrinc:
--- Quote from: TheRysta on June 22, 2009, 12:14:35 PM ---How would John have said 'forever and ever' if he had meaned to convey it?
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Where did John say this, or is this a rhetorical question ???, if so to what end or goal.
Forever and ever is an oxymoronic statement. According to all current understanding of present English word usage, forever cannot be plural or plus anything.
As Ray has shown, there was no word meaning endless time until one of the Popes (Justinian) i think, decided to make Christians live forever and Everyone else punish or burn forever. That is where the root words (Eon or Aion) meaning an age or eon (time period) was redefined to fit current Babylonian and daughter churches teaching by adding incorrect interpretations to them.
Talking about oxymoronic (Strongs Concordance includes these blatant falsehoods)
Again, Ray has shown in his papers that the only times endlessness is used in Scripture it is expressed as NO END.
Isa 9:7 (CLV)
To the increase of the chieftainship, and to the welfare shall be no end. On the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to prepare it, and to brace it with judgment and with justice, henceforth and in the future eon. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this."
Luk 1:32-33 (CLV)
32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation." (no end)
Luk 1: 32-33 (WNT)
32 He will be great and He will be called 'Son of the Most High.' And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His forefather David;
33 and He will be King over the House of Jacob for the Ages, and of His Kingdom there will be no end."
Thus, John would have no reason to say such a thing.
If you keep taking shortcuts, you will get to where you are heading, but miss all the reasons why, you took the trip, on your short route.
george. :)
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---As Ray has shown, there was no word meaning endless time until one of the Popes (Justinian) i think, decided to make Christians live forever and Everyone else punish or burn forever. That is where the word Eon or Aion meaning an age or eon was redefined to fit current Babylonian and daughter churches teaching. george
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In concern to what George posted. Email to Ray on Pope Justinian.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2598.0.html
i ray,
here is another letter..please don't think i'm looking for holes in your messages as I do enjoy the reading as well as the knowlege I feel i've picked up (thank you)
ok my question you said eons had an end..I was always under the impression that eons ment An indefinitely long period of time (indefinitely meaning forever) where am I wrong is it in the translation?
Ray
Dear Ray:
Words are not defined by "impressions." Greek "aions" always had reference to a period of time, be it short or long. This is true from the earliest Greek writings. The early church fathers also knew this to be true. It was in the year 540 that Justinian called for a church council. He wanted to establish that the life of the saint was to be "everlasting," and so concluded that it must be taught that the life of the doomed must also be "everlasting." He knew that the Greek words aion and aionios did not have this meaning of "everlasting," so he attached the word "ENDLESS" to these words which he knew meant ages. And so, thus was born the unscriptural, damnable heresy of "ENDLESS AGES." Here we have absolute irrefutable proof that "aions" did not mean endless or would not have been necessary to attached the word "endless" to a word if it also meant endless. "Everlasting punishment," and "eternal life" are theological LIES that have no place in the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
daywalker:
--- Quote from: TheRysta on June 22, 2009, 12:14:35 PM ---How would John have said 'forever and ever' if he had meaned to convey it?
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Well, John didn't say "forever and ever". This is an English mistranslation of the Greek Manuscripts.
arion:
--- Quote ---To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'.
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Also,
...just to dovetail into what others have already said your reading this and probably thinking about literal, physical smoke here. The book of revelation is spiritual and Jesus's words to John are spiritual. Jesus said that his words are spirit and they are life. There is no physical smoke that arises into the eons...it's a metaphor. I think it's also wise advise not to jump around too much. Ray builds on his teachings brick by brick. If you jump way ahead in the LOF series you might get real confused.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: TheRysta on June 22, 2009, 10:47:57 AM ---Can anybody please guide me to Ray's paper in which he talks specifically about the genitive use of the word 'aionios' in the book of Revelation in reference to 'forever and ever'? I am at the end of his third installment of the Lake of Fire series (there's a lot to read!), and he said that he would talk about it later on in the series. I was hoping to just skip to it because it's plaguing my mind.
To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'. I am pretty sure that it means for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith even says himself that he admists that there was no expression for everlasting (even though I thought it was the word 'aidios'), so in that case, how would John otherwise have portrayed the expression of 'ceaseless time' with the words available in his apocalyptic style of writing?
It also has to be noted that the Greek in the book of Revelation is different from the rest of the New Testament in some of the ways words are conveyed. Ages of the ages really could and probably should mean forever and ever. If it does not, then why didn't John just use the word 'aionios' as an adjective or at least MENTION as resurrection from this lake of fire which he never does! Only Paul does! Not even Jesus!
Remember also Revelation 15:7 where it says: ...God, who liveth forever and ever. God living into the ages of the ages... how could it make sense any other way? Surely it must mean forever and ever? Is the life of God finite?
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If the word Aion means "Forever" than revalation should technically read in many cases ; "Forevers of the forevers" and not "For EVER and EVER."
LOL even a child knows this is silly and redundant, what is forevers of the forevers?
God bless,
Alex
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