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[daywalker]

True. Sorry, but I meant to ask for proof suggests that you have doubt...Therefore asking for proof of something i.e. having to physically see it means that you don't believe or believe to lesser degree (if that is even possible).

Where as if you have Faith then you have no doubt, therefore not having to ask for proof in the first place...Because you already have proof...seeing it (the proof) in other means. Namely, Spiritually.

What I meant by this is that God is already proving to us His doings.... and we all know that God does not change...therefore God isn't going to just "appear" to  non-believers. He is going to do it the way He as always done it because that is the only way.

Thanks, it was a mistake what posted previously...

 

True, true. I imagine God will "reveal" Himself to the World in a similar way as He did us. Though, it will be in a much more obvious and glorious way.

I do believe, however, that Jesus Christ will physically appear at His Return, for ALL TO SEE. [But, I don't believe He will be "wearing" His 2,000 year old body, with holes in His hands and feet...]


Btw, saying that God doesn't change, doesn't mean that God doesn't make "changes" to the way He operates His Creation. Not that He changes His "mind" as that would imply a "mistake" on His part. But that, at His timing, and in accord with His Plan and His Will, He will update the Rulebook, so to speak. [sorry, words of a sports fan here...]

A few Scriptural examples:

Nation of Israel. They were His chosen people, but no longer as they have been cast out, in order that the Gentiles may find Salvation. Later the Jews will be grafted back in. [Romans 11]

Also, the Priesthood of Levi is no longer, as Jesus Christ is our High Priest. [Hebrews 7]

There is no more Temple, as we are God's temple. [I Corinthians 3:16-17]

etc, etc.


These are all "changes" God has made throughout the eons, all in accord with His Purpose. But God Himself never "changes"--meaning His being, His Character, Who He Is. He never changes, as His Son, Jesus, never changes.


PS: If you already knew and understood all this, then I apologize. But I felt the 'need' to share this information with you. I used to struggle with what "God does not change" means...

If you're interested, and haven't already, Ray does a few good studies in relation to this subject:

May2008 Bible Study Can a Sovereign God Change?
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 3.mp3

Also, this one was very enlightening:

November 2008 Bible Study Time and Eternity
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 2.mp3




May God Guide You,

Daywalker. 

[TheRysta]

Ah, I didn't see this coming.

It's not proof of God's existence I want. To me the very fact that I am a senient being is proof enough. It's testimonies about this fabled hell. I only seem to have seen testimonies OF it, but if there were also testimonies AGAINST it, then it would prove the unreliability of relying on these 'visions'. Otherwise, it becomes strange that we only have testimonies of hell, that it might be real. Even if I just had ONE counter vision that would be enough.

Heck... the visions don't even have to be divinely inspired at all! They can be fake mind-trips for all I care, just so long as it can be proven that the mind can generate BOTH experiences and not just ONE.

Ta
- Ryan

[Vangie]

Okay Ryan, are you looking for the near death and/or out of body experiences and visions where people claim to have seen "a bright light"?  There are plenty of those counter visions or testimonies out there in which the person describes a pleasant, even heavenly light beckoned them when they were dead (or maybe even thought they were)....but then they woke up, or were resuscitated, etc.    

I guess I just don't understand what is your point in pursuing this topic.  We're not supposed to be looking for signs and wonders, right?  You either believe the truth that there is no hell, or you doubt and keep looking for other people to tell you of their "vision" of an alternative.

[Linny]

Vangie is right Ryan. Must I have or hear of a vision that there is no Santa or Easter bunny to know that they are not real?
Truth requires no visions!

[cjwood]

okie dokie ryan. here ya go. i just had a vision while sitting here that there is NO HELL that will burn all the "bad people" forever in its' fire. i saw all those "bad people" in a line waiting their turn to stand before their Righteous Judge. they were really, really scared because they were remembering all the lost opportunities they had to believe in the Truths they had heard while living their earthly lives. they were sore afraid because they had believed all their lives that there was a hellfire and oh how they wished they could go back now and do it all over again. and then, one by one, as they each stood before the Judge their eyes were opened to what they had been blind to see before. one by one they knelt down and proclaimed that He was Lord, Jesus Christ the Saviour. and they said to their Lord, You mean there REALLY wasn't a literal hell? this judgment i just experienced was the hell? well that is just awesome my Brother. there is your vision ryan. physically typed down for your eyes to see, but spiritually inspired. a fake mind-trip if you want to say that, but nonetheless, inspired by our Creators' Spirit.

now my dear baby brother in Christ, let it go. you have your vision.

claudia

[Marky Mark]

Linny.Um, ah, you are kidding about the bunny and Santa!!! Aren't you???

[smeacham]

Rysta, I don't know about you. But, the Spirit in me is judging  me and showing me I am a Beast.... There are so many days I can barely stand myself.

I feel the same way, Marlene.  No, NOT about You  .  About me!

How's this for a testimony?  God is big, I am little.  He is good, I am bad.  God is smart, I am stupid.  God is perfect, I am imperfect.  God us trustworthy, I am untrustworthy.  God tells the truth, I tell lies.  God is God, I am NOT.  In fact, I've broken every one of the 10 commandments.

Beyond statements like Marlene's and mine, put no stake in what we or anybody else testifies.  In fact, I'm an imperfect, stupid, bad, untrustworthy, lying little man.  You shouldn't look to us or anybody else's testimony for faith.  Look to God alone, and let others do the same.

Steve

[noeleena]

Hi....
     To be accepted with out ? 
           Is more importaint  than any thing .  even though our creator  made this earth for us . to enjoy . with the blessing that goes with all that comes with being human . ((other wise we would not be here now ))
    Do we need proof  of what we have . or are we that blind that we reject the one who allowed  for us to be born . (( I dont mean out side of what the Lord allowed for .))  Just a thought ..
     ...noeleena...

[Marky Mark]

Ah, I didn't see this coming.

It's not proof of God's existence I want. To me the very fact that I am a senient being is proof enough. It's testimonies about this fabled hell. I only seem to have seen testimonies OF it, but if there were also testimonies AGAINST it, then it would prove the unreliability of relying on these 'visions'. Otherwise, it becomes strange that we only have testimonies of hell, that it might be real. Even if I just had ONE counter vision that would be enough.

Heck... the visions don't even have to be divinely inspired at all! They can be fake mind-trips for all I care, just so long as it can be proven that the mind can generate BOTH experiences and not just ONE.

Ta
- Ryan

Ryan,how about this for a so called counter vision of which you speak. Not from some type of quack  or  s-e-l-f reliance, but from the apostle Paul,a called and chosen and faithful servant of God. When the Father begins His works in you then and only then will the Truths of the Spirit wash over you, not unlike a wave of Righteousness and Truth.

Rely on Gods Word,always,not on the world...



 2 Corinthians 12
New International Version   

Paul’s Vision and His Thorn

1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.



Peace...Mark

 

[judith collier]

Rysta, Jesus said, "if you love me my father in heaven will love you and I will manifest myself to you" After 33 years of blind faith (given by God), He did just that. Can I count that as salvation? Oh dear God no! Now, 33 years later and still learning I tremble at the depths of sin I have in me. This is not a catwalk, this is unbelievably serious business, even though I do not worry about hell, per se, it grieves me to think of my offenses against God..  you do not know anything yet. Listen to everyone here and learn and be satisfied as to what you have at this point. Do not be superficial nor too curious about things, do seek but humbly tred this path, it is not for the faint of heart. People do not call christians "soldiers" for nothing. Question yourself concerning your curiosity. Judy