Matthew 7:21 "Many Shall Say to Me on That Day....

[jsendog]

THIS WAS A QUESTION A FRIEND HAD AND ALSO MADE ME QUESTION IT??  Does anybody have any descernment here or did Ray have an email about this  scripture, mainly the Matthew 7:21....

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I am not done researching it, but this is my question to the Holy Spirit: is this talking about salvation or is this talking about living LIFE here on earth - the way to TRUE life - joyful life no matter the circumstances - is the gate that is narrow. Then look at this is the next verse:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.

It is DIRECTLY telling us to watch out for false prophets - what telling us that the previous verse would be misconstrued? The Bible has no mistakes in the placement of text - we in our "infinite wisdom" added numbers and character breaks - Jesus did not say Matt chapter...7:13-14..."

...but then I come to this verse and it doesn't seem to fit with the previous ones if this is talking about life here on earth and not living a life to enter heaven...

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I always felt that this was pertaining to religions like Mormons etc that did not call on the true God. I don't know I am just confused now. This whole verse minus the verses 21-23 say to me about life living here on earth not making the way to go to heaven...

Also, what you were saying about free will, why would it say that "who does not do the will of my Father..." doesn't that mean that we have the choice to follow or not? I know that we don't have full free will - that has always been a farse to me - because our circumstances mold our choices - but we do have the choice to honor God through our trials or not - we have the choice to turn away from the narrow gate...

I am praying and reading and researching about all you have given me - but right now it's just bringing up more an more questions - I mean look how just a few verses studying them can just boggle your mind! AHHHH why does discernment not come easily for some things!

When I read the first verses alone I can see how they pertained to just living here and then with adding the later one... well, I am just not sure!

I just wanted to give you feedback that I am not ignoring your text readings and so forth. I am reading them slowly for discernment and praying about it all. My biggest feeling is that I just don't know! Which puts me on relying on God for the answers, which I am fully fine with - until He chooses to reveal an insight to me. However I get excited when researching this, but it is not a peaceful excitement. So I am still praying for discernment. But I just thought I would share.

[Robin]

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

GOD THE FARMER

Think about these things with a little bit of sensibility and reverence for God's desires. Oh how we demean the very God we claim to worship. For millennia man has tilled the ground, planted seed, cultivated, sweat and toiled in anticipation of a GOOD CROP. You can't count the times that Scripture talks of food, produce, oil, olives, figs, corn, wine, cattle, milk, honey, seedtime and harvest. The ideal setting being a land filled with happy children , peace, health, and PLENTY! Our Lord said that God His Father is a "Farmer" ("My Father is the Farmer" John 15:1)

Now it is indeed acknowledged by the church that God will have a small spring harvest of firstfruits, but when it comes to the FALL harvest, the really BIG harvest, The Greatest Farmer in the Universe, will not have a bumper crop but will rather have a TOTAL CROP FAILURE! Or more precisely, He BURNS THE ENTIRE FALL HARVEST. Does this blasphemous teaching sound to you like God is being exalted as the Greatest Farmer in all the earth? An all-wise, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving Farmer Who can cultivate and produce a perfect and complete Fall Harvest? Why would our Father's Son, Jesus Christ, liken His Father to a Farmer, knowing in advance that His Farmer Father will produce fall harvest that is worse that the worst of human farmers?

The spring harvest is the harvest of those firstfruits that have entered into the straight and narrow gate. The fall harvest is the harvest of all those who went the wide and broad way into destruction. Destruction is not the final destiny of the nonbeliever. Being DESTROYED, PERISHED, and LOST are all conditions awaiting SALVATION, and are not conditions to be eternally punished! All, absolutely ALL, who are not in the first resurrection are in a condition likened to: "lost," "perished," or "destroyed." Contrary to orthodoxy these conditions are NOT hopeless:
DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST

DESTROYED: Is being destroyed a condition from which there is no salvation? Jesus said,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is 'gehenna fire,' Mat. 5:22, not 'hell fire']" (Matt. 10:28).

Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... but He spake of the temple of His BODY" (John 2:19 & 21).

Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God SAVED Jesus from that destruction.

Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":

"Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:.

Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter's house and observe him at work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!

PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,

"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).

One more,

"The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).

Perishing is not something that can cut off God's arm of salvation.

LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let's look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks of as easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don't even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won't read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.

God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.

"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).

This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn't this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).

Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:

"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).

How pray tell can the physically dead, stand, if they are dead?

So here then is the order of things. The Prodigal Son SINNED, he was LOST, he spiritually DIED, and then? And then he was JUDGED! Where and when was he judged? In the hog pens of a far alien country, that's where. God had to bring him out of this alien county (Mystery Babylon the Great) with all its "riotous living" (Luke 15:13). And so it was that God JUDGED this Prodigal with the beasts and swine of Babylon until he "came to himself." (Ver. 17). Seems to me that God sent King Nebuchadnezzer into the fields with the beasts to live like a beast, so that he too "came to himself." God has not warned in vain to

"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).

He that has an ear, let him hear.

And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can't be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that's why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God's "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!

"...For when Thy [God's] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!

[Kat]

Hi Jennifer,

It does take some time to let these things sink in and to bring it all together in out understanding. 

Also, what you were saying about free will, why would it say that "who does not do the will of my Father..." doesn't that mean that we have the choice to follow or not? I know that we don't have full free will - that has always been a farse to me - because our circumstances mold our choices - but we do have the choice to honor God through our trials or not - we have the choice to turn away from the narrow gate...

What you are talking about here is having a limited or restricted free will, that to some degree we do choose.  If God is sovereign this can not be true, "we have the choice to turn away from the narrow gate." Because this would still bring about the situation where we, not God, can determine the outcome.

Here is a excerpt from Ray's letter to Kennedy.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ----------

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will? Or is this just more theological double-talk?

Only in religion do simple words lose their meaning. Let's look at Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: Page 963, "limited, a. Restricted." Page 682, "free, a. without restriction." So here then is what theologians want us to believe: Man has a will that is restricted without restriction.

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

Somebody has been taking William James too seriously. God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.

Theologians condemn scientists for their inability to see beyond the "relative" in our universe. Surely these scientists must see that a God must be behind everything. However, except for rare persons like Dr. Einstein, they can't.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Martin]

(Many will say to Me in that day)
What day is Jesus referring to?   It seems that these many are people that thought they were doing what was right. Am I seeing that wrong?. What does it mean? Are these the pastors that were blinded by God?
When God blinds someone, then they don't know they are blind. Is that right?
The pastor from the church building I left really thinks he is doing what is right.


Roy

[aqrinc]

(Many will say to Me in that day)
What day is Jesus referring to?   It seems that these many are people that thought they were doing what was right. Am I seeing that wrong?. What does it mean? Are these the pastors that were blinded by God?
When God blinds someone, then they don't know they are blind. Is that right?
The pastor from the church building I left really thinks he is doing what is right.

Roy

Many would be most, if we are to be consistent with Scripture where the many is likened to other than the few. There are a relative few pastors and teachers and many professing that, Jesus Christ is Lord; but denying His Power And Godhead.

Isa 29: 9-16 (GNB)
9  Go ahead and be stupid! Go ahead and be blind! Get drunk without any wine! Stagger without drinking a drop!
10  The LORD has made you drowsy, ready to fall into a deep sleep. The prophets should be the eyes of the people, but God has blindfolded them.

11  The meaning of every prophetic vision will be hidden from you; it will be like a sealed scroll. If you take it to someone who knows how to read and ask him to read it to you, he will say he can't because it is sealed.
12  If you give it to someone who can't read and ask him to read it to you, he will answer that he doesn't know how.

1. Talking about the many.

13  The Lord said, "These people claim to worship me, but their words are meaningless, and their hearts are somewhere else. Their religion is nothing but human rules and traditions, which they have simply memorized.
14  So I will startle them with one unexpected blow after another. Those who are wise will turn out to be fools, and all their cleverness will be useless."

15  Those who try to hide their plans from the LORD are doomed! They carry out their schemes in secret and think no one will see them or know what they are doing.
16  They turn everything upside down. Which is more important, the potter or the clay? Can something you have made say, "You didn't make me"? Or can it say, "You don't know what you are doing"?

2. Here Jesus Christ is talking about the many again.

Mat 15: (MKJV)
7  Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8  [color=red]"This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.[/color]
9  But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

10  And He called the crowd and said to them, Hear and understand.
11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.
12  Then His disciples came and said to Him, Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?

13  But He answered and said, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.
14  Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

george .

[gmik]

Jennifer, relax a little..  its ok...we have all been thru this and you will come out fine!

We make thousands of choices everyday- Jif or Skippy???.....but every choice we make was influenced by a thousand other things in your life that led you to standing in the aisle wondering about peanut butter.  All those things that influenced you were caused by God....beginning w/ when you were to be born and to whom and how you were going to be you!

Does God really care if you choose Jif or Skippy?  Probably not...but He caused every jot and tittle of your life and will continue to do so.  You had to get in the car and drive to the store and had to use your arm to pick up the Jif and put it in the cart.  Hee Hee and you had to pay for it.  but ALL is of God!

Hope this helps a tad.

[24 Grams]

Hi All.

Jennifer...If you are reading this.

Remember Jesus spoke words of Spirit...And Spirit is not literal... niether past or future...It is always on the PRESENT.

So all those quotes you posted are speaking of the NOW and ALWAYS. I'm not good with Hyperlinks. So if anybody knows the link containing th e-mail when Mr Smith writes to the Preterist...Futurist (or whatever) concerning wether the Testimony of Jesus Christ i.e. Revelation  that would help too.

And regarding free-will. Yes we do not have free-will but this does not mean everyone does God's will it just means no one can go against His intention....His intention and His will are not the same thing....For example even Satan goes with God's intention.

Hope this Helps. If it is still necessary.

Ovi.

[Marky Mark]

So if anybody knows the link containing th e-mail when Mr Smith writes to the Preterist...Futurist (or whatever) concerning wether the Testimony of Jesus Christ i.e. Revelation  that would help too.

24 Grams,here is the email that you speak of.

Glad to see you back also.


http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#preterist

Dear David:

Thank you for your email and comments about preterism.

I do comment from time to time on this theory, however, I have not ever handled it as a separate paper. I am at least a little familiar with the preterist and futurist approach to prophecy.

David, what if there is a third approach? The Scriptural approach? Would you be ready to consider that? I cover this principle in passing in Part X of my series on "The Lake of Fire."

Let me let the Scriptures shatter BOTH the preterist and futurist theory on prophecy fulfillment.  I'll not attempt to harmonize all of the prophecies of Daniel, Joel, Zachariah, Matt. 24 and the the book of Revelation in one email. I have sixty more emails to answer. Hope you understand.

I think we can all agree that the Book of Revelation covers a larger assortment of prophetic world events than the rest of the prophets put together. The Book of Revelation is "the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." (It is decidedly NOT the revelation of St. John the Divine).  And just what is "the testimony" of Jesus Christ? 

"...for the testimony of Jesus is THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY" (Rev. 19:10).

Now then, is this prophecy of Revelation futurist or preterist? IT IS NEITHER! The answer is so simple, but who will believe it? I will give you the answer (not a full explanation, JUST THE ANSWER -- for now anyway):

"The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, which God gave unto Him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY [or QUICKLY, is this 'preterist'? -- see my Series on the Lake of Fire for an explanation of this statement] come to pass; and He sent and SIGNIFIED [symbolized] it by His angel unto His servant John:  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.  Blessed is HE THAT READS ['futurist'?], and THEY THAT HEAR [those in John's day? Or those during the middle ages? Or those in these latter days?] the words of this prophecy ['futurist'?], and KEEP those things which are written therein; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND ['preterist'? I cover this phrase in my Lake of Fire series]."

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto YOU [just the seven literal, physical, churches in Asia during the first century? Remember that this 'testimony' of Jesus is SPIRITUAL, Rev. 19:10. "Hear what the SPIRIT says unto the churches, 2:7, 11, 17, etc.], and peace, from Him WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH  IS  TO COME..."!!! (Rev. 1:1-4).

There is your SCRIPTURAL ANSWER, David. Everything in the Book of Revelation (which is the testimony--the prophecy of Jesus Christ), leading up to the consummation of all things, differs not from Jesus Christ Himself which, "IS, WAS, AND WILL BE." See, Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17; 16:5, etc. Preterists deny the FUTURE: Futurists deny the PAST: BOTH deny THE NOW -- what presently "IS"!

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray






Peace...Mark

[the goldfields]

Hi jsendog, don't be discouraged, you ask some good questions!
As Kat said... it does take time for these things to sink in and the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. (into the street which is called Straight)
God is the farmer and it is evident that He is cultivating you so that you can come to understand his ways.
It seems that God gives us a desire to study His Word so that we can develop discernment by becoming more and more familiar with what He says to be true.
Ray's writings are so helpful because he brings together so many verses of Scripture to bring out the truths that we are so hungry for!
And there are loving people here to help you find the answers you seek.

Philippians 4:6 For nothing, be anxious, but, in everything, by your prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let, your petitions, be made known unto God;
7 And, the peace of God, which riseth above every mind, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts, in Christ Jesus.

[Rocket999]

I emailed Ray about this a few years back:

After reading your paper God judges the world in a pond you claim that God is the lake of fire... which would mean we go straight to the lake of fire (God) on judgement day but I found a scripture that clearly contradicts it.

        21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

        and I see how you like to bold/capitalize and underline scriptures to prove your points so I will do the same.

        "And then I will declare to them DEPART FROM ME"

        if we go straight to God in our judgement then why does he say flee from me, I never knew you. does this not make it obvious that if we don't know him by the time we die then we can not be with him in the after-life?

        I'd really appreciate some understanding on this matter...

        -
         

        Dear :
        Jesus did not mean by "depart from Me" that they should go to outer space or go to hell or any such nonsense. He meant they had to depart from being IN HIS KINGDOM.  In like manner, Jesus said to Peter:  "Get thee behind Me Satan."  Yet Peter didn't move to Jesus' back side or leave the area or go to hell or something.  Jesus is speaking of spiritual position, not geographical location.
        God be with you,
        Ray



So basically imagine all of these "Christians" who had absolutely NO idea what it means to follow Christ (but they believe they have been) coming to Jesus on judgement day. They see that it is actually a fact after all that God was a loving father and Christ was his son but Jesus straight up rejects them (from reigning with him and the elect to judge the world to be more specific). They are confused why Jesus is reprimanding them like this and they go "WHAT!? Haven't I loved you so much? Haven't I casted away the devil in your name so many times? Have I not done many things in your name?" and Jesus looks at all of these fire and brimstone thumpers and just goes "Flee from me, you never knew me you evildoers!"

Does this mean that he will never allow them in his kingdom? No! It just means during the period after the first resurrection. These people still have much spiritual purification to endure before God will allow them to be considered "sons (or daughters" of God"


I don't know, that's how I imagine it. Hope this helps

[SeekingHIM]

I am SO appreciating your comments to questions I have had, too. I always felt that some of the pastors of the mega churches, who decided what to preach by surveying the community, would have a big shock awaiting them. No doubt, I will have a big shock awaiting me, too. God is much bigger than any of us have the capability of understanding. This forum and these questions are feeding me the food I've been starving for. Thank you, ALL for participating!! You don't know what it means to me. Well, maybe you do.

Pat