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Author Topic: HellHammers  (Read 8413 times)

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TheRysta

  • Guest
HellHammers
« on: July 08, 2009, 06:25:22 PM »

I've decided to come up with a list of things which are the nails in the coffin of the doctrine of everlasting torment. Not each little one, but the most powerful ones. We could easily do this with scripture, but I would rather they be for references rather than the actual statements. I have three real hammers so far, at least the ones which tingle my tastebuds the most. I just reckoned I'd like to stick them all in one place and list:

1) God will be all in all

This is core to my beliefs as I am a pantheist, so it's pretty damn powerful to me. I don't know the biblical references so if someone could provide them that would be helpful. Quantum physics shows us that we are all interconnected by the divine will of cause - effect. The universe is one organism conforming to the will of God. Therefore, it is senseless to say that a disembodied ego will be backstage burning in hell forever and ever.

2) Free will, the absence of

I don't believe that our supposed 'free will' is trancendent of God's will, once again tieing in with God's soverignity I mentioned above. If our will is not free, then that means that God knows that we are going to hell from the day we are born. In fact, not only that, but he CHOSE us to. Now, I know that emotional responses don't count as logical arguments, but I think you know my attitude to this view of Christendom...                                      WHAT????????????????????????

And this one's my favorite...

3) If hell is real, then Jesus' sacrifice was evil.

This might seem like a powerful statement, but do you get it? The Jews did not believe in any kind of 'afterlife', just Sheol. We all know John 3:16 right? God so loved the world... SO THAT the believers would have eternal life! Jesus made the ressurection of man possible, the resurrection of the believers and the wicked. Jesus KNEW that the way was narrow and few would enter, so if eternal punishment is real, then allowing for us to be ressurected would have resulted in more suffering than salvation. He would have performed an EVIL act!

Do we have any more? I need a whole list of hellbusters  ;D
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 06:28:26 PM by TheRysta »
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 08:35:53 PM »


This is core to my beliefs as I am a pantheist,


Hi Rysta,

Which type of "pantheist" would you count yourself as being or believing?


Definitions of pantheism;

1. Oxford English Dictionary

Pantheism.
1. The religious belief or philosophical theory that God and the Universe are identical (implying a denial of the personality and transcendence of God);  the doctrine that God is everything and everything is God.
[First use 1730, modelled on the word pantheist, first used by John Toland in 1705]
2. The heathen worship of all the gods.
[First use 1837 by Sir F. Palgrave, describing the Tartar tribes who respected all creeds but were attached to none]
2. Merriam-Webster Collegiate in Encyclopaedia Britannica

Pantheism
1: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
2: the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples
indifferently; also: toleration of worship of all gods (as at certain
periods of the Roman empire).
 
3. Encyclopaedia Britannica

Pantheism
[Only one def given]
The doctrine that the universe conceived of as a whole is God and,
conversely, that there is no God but the combined substance, forces, and
laws that are manifested in the existing universe. . .
The adjective pantheist was coined by the rationalist freethinker John
Toland in his book Socinianism Truly Stated (1705). The noun pantheism was
first used a few years later by one of Toland's opponents.
 
4. Grolier's Encyclopaedia

Pantheism
[Only one definition given]
Pantheism is the belief that everything is divine, that God is not separate
from but totally identified with the world, and that God does not possess
personality or transcendence.
 
5. WorldBook Encyclopaedia

Pantheism
[Only one definition given]
Pantheism is the belief that everything is divine, that God is not separate
from but totally identified with the world, and that God does not possess
personality or transcendence.
 
6. Encarta Encyclopaedia

Pantheism
[Only one definition given]
Pantheism, doctrine that identifies the universe (Greek pan, "all") with
God (Greek theos).
7. Longman Dictionary

Pantheism
1. A doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of nature.
2. The worship of all gods of different religions, cults or peoples
indifferently, also tolerance of such worship (eg at certain periods of the
Roman Empire).
 
8. Hutchinson New Century Encyclopaedia

[Only one definition given]
Pantheism
Doctrine that regards all of reality as divine, and God as present in all
of nature and the universe.
 
9. Larousse Desk Reference Encyclopaedia

[Only one definition given]
Pantheism
Belief that God and universe are one and the same.
 
10. Cambridge Encyclopaedia

[Only one definition given]
Pantheism
The belief that God and the Universe are ultimately identical.
 
11. Penguin Dictionary of Philosophy

[Only one definition given]
Pantheism
The doctrine that the world as a whole, nature in the widest sense, is
identical with God.
 
12. Oxford Companion to Philosophy

[Only one definition given]
Pantheism
First used by John Toland on 1705, the term "pantheist" denotes one who
holds both that everything there is constitutes a unity, and that this
unity is divine.
 
13. Penguin Dictionary of Religions

[Only one definition given]
Pantheism
Belief that the whole of reality is divine.

The one thing I noticed missing in all of these definitions is;

1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Peace,

Joe

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kenny

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 12:28:09 AM »

I've decided to come up with a list of things which are the nails in the coffin of the doctrine of everlasting torment. Not each little one, but the most powerful ones. We could easily do this with scripture, but I would rather they be for references rather than the actual statements. I have three real hammers so far, at least the ones which tingle my tastebuds the most. I just reckoned I'd like to stick them all in one place and list:

1) God will be all in all

This is core to my beliefs as I am a pantheist, so it's pretty damn powerful to me. I don't know the biblical references so if someone could provide them that would be helpful. Quantum physics shows us that we are all interconnected by the divine will of cause - effect. The universe is one organism conforming to the will of God. Therefore, it is senseless to say that a disembodied ego will be backstage burning in hell forever and ever.

2) Free will, the absence of

I don't believe that our supposed 'free will' is trancendent of God's will, once again tieing in with God's soverignity I mentioned above. If our will is not free, then that means that God knows that we are going to hell from the day we are born. In fact, not only that, but he CHOSE us to. Now, I know that emotional responses don't count as logical arguments, but I think you know my attitude to this view of Christendom...                                      WHAT????????????????????????

And this one's my favorite...

3) If hell is real, then Jesus' sacrifice was evil.

This might seem like a powerful statement, but do you get it? The Jews did not believe in any kind of 'afterlife', just Sheol. We all know John 3:16 right? God so loved the world... SO THAT the believers would have eternal life! Jesus made the ressurection of man possible, the resurrection of the believers and the wicked. Jesus KNEW that the way was narrow and few would enter, so if eternal punishment is real, then allowing for us to be ressurected would have resulted in more suffering than salvation. He would have performed an EVIL act!

Do we have any more? I need a whole list of hellbusters  ;D
It will defiantly pan out in the end that is for sure.
kenny
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TheRysta

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 05:52:45 PM »

...............

Do I heck no which definition I am. But I can tell you what I believe.

I do not believe in God as a personality (although he can be represented as such... that's fine and obviously Jesus did it), I believe that God is the manifestation of purpose in the universe. A collective consciousness, a senient creator, preserver, and destroyer. God is the meaning of systems.

I do believe that God is love, because love is perhaps the greatest divine purpose in the universe. Making it quite definitively... God.

I used to call myself a deist, but the deist ideology of God makes it out almost as if everything is an accident.

People like to say that Pantheism is 'sexed up' athesim
I believe that atheism is under-sexed pantheism.

 ;D

- Ryan
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 06:53:07 PM »

...............

Do I heck no which definition I am. But I can tell you what I believe.

I do not believe in God as a personality (although he can be represented as such... that's fine and obviously Jesus did it), I believe that God is the manifestation of purpose in the universe. A collective consciousness, a senient creator, preserver, and destroyer. God is the meaning of systems.

I do believe that God is love, because love is perhaps the greatest divine purpose in the universe. Making it quite definitively... God.

I used to call myself a deist, but the deist ideology of God makes it out almost as if everything is an accident.

People like to say that Pantheism is 'sexed up' athesim
I believe that atheism is under-sexed pantheism.

 ;D

- Ryan

Ryan,

If this is what you believe, than you don't believe the Scriptures. Please don't take this as a personal insult, it's just a reality. Pantheism is another result of carnal man using his carnal mind to explain who and what God is.

"I believe that God is the manifestation of purpose in the universe"

I assume that you already know that the Universe hasn't always existed... So, where was God then? What was God before the Universe? Or did He 'come into existence after the Universe'? No, this universe as all things came "out of God". [1 Cor 8:6]

This universe is physical.

God is not physical.

He is Spiritual.


This universe will one day come to an end.

God will never come to an end.


We are physical.

After death, resurrection and judgment, We shall be Spiritual.

Thus we shall be like God--Spiritual--no longer physical.

Everything that He has, and everything He is--SO WE SHALL BE! [I John 3:2]


As long as you continue to use your own carnal, physical mind to try and find God; you won't.


Daywalker.  8)
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bible man

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 08:11:16 PM »

God created all alone (Isaiah 44:24) - "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone."
All things created by/through Jesus (Colossians 1:16-17) - "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
                               



We should be what God is, Holy!!!  not pantheist, baptist, catholic, apostolic,  God is the creator we are the creation
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lauriellen

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 08:36:11 PM »

prov. 3:5   Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine OWN
                UNDERSTANDING.

We must not define God, we must let HIM TELL US WHO HE IS through his own words.
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dave

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 11:32:52 PM »

I dont know, I have been on a site for two days trying to establish this and I am now very weary,
they think I hate God; to think that I could posssibly consider or think that God will save His entire
creation, people HAVE to PAY! Gods love could not possibly be love that would save the ugly of His
creation. I laughed and I cryed. I thank Jesus that this site is ALIVE! :D Peace and Love Through
JESUS.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 01:52:35 AM »

I wrote my own little blog on this stuff one time on myspace.

I think its pretty solid and i feel it was guided by God's spirit. It's been a while since i took up the mantle and wrote artcles refuting some pagan garbage that the church spews but.. eh if you have myspace add me and check it out;

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=1269566&blogId=328367478
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 04:27:46 PM »

I dont know, I have been on a site for two days trying to establish this and I am now very weary,
they think I hate God; to think that I could posssibly consider or think that God will save His entire
creation, people HAVE to PAY! Gods love could not possibly be love that would save the ugly of His
creation. I laughed and I cryed. I thank Jesus that this site is ALIVE! :D Peace and Love Through
JESUS.


The first problem when discussing these things with a Babylonian is they assume that if there's no Hell, then there's no judgment/punishment for the sinners at all... They refuse to consider that God is capable of having an AGE of Judgment, in which, we shall ALL be judged, "according to our WORKS". No, it's either "eternal" judgment or no judgment. But you can't really blame them, it's what they're taught...

As you will soon learn, it's better not to go out and 'disturb' these people... As Ray said in one of his audios, "Leave them alone. They don't want the truth." And, likewise as Jesus said,

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I tried to go out and "spread the truth" several times over the past few months. Besides, this is our human nature to go out and 'pick fights', even Spiritual fights... Now, I know better. As God dragged me to this site, so God will drag others to this site, as well as to me, if He deems me worthy of being one of His Tools.

My only focus now is on Him, and living like Him, and letting His Light shine through me, by my Works and Love. This is our calling. A much more simple one. Yet a very long and treacherous road...


Daywalker. 8)
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 05:33:24 PM »

This is indeed wisdom.......

Great post/message Daywalker, been there too!  ;)

Peace,

Joe
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Astrapho

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 10:16:15 AM »

Quote
Do we have any more? I need a whole list of hellbusters

A hellbuster I still can't find a way to get around...

God cannot be all-loving and all-powerful but at the same time throw unbelievers into eternal hellfire.

If God cannot redeem/save people from eternal hellfire even though He wanted to, that means that He is not all-powerful.

If God has the ability to redeem/save people from eternal hellfire, if He does not do so then He does not love us enough to get us out of there, and so He is not all-loving.

Oh yeah, I really liked no. 3. ;D

Quote
3) If hell is real, then Jesus' sacrifice was evil.

This might seem like a powerful statement, but do you get it? The Jews did not believe in any kind of 'afterlife', just Sheol. We all know John 3:16 right? God so loved the world... SO THAT the believers would have eternal life! Jesus made the ressurection of man possible, the resurrection of the believers and the wicked. Jesus KNEW that the way was narrow and few would enter, so if eternal punishment is real, then allowing for us to be ressurected would have resulted in more suffering than salvation. He would have performed an EVIL act!
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Roy Coates

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 04:29:03 PM »

Good thread. I would like to add this simple Scripture:

Mat 6:33 Yet seek first the kingdom and its righteousness, and these all shall be added to you.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 05:01:57 PM »

am i allowed to post my blog here? Like copy and paste the whole thing? Its long but i think its just what youre looking for. Howver i dont want to post it and be told im "teaching" or w/e lol
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Craig

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
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  • Posts: 4282
  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 05:07:05 PM »

PM to a moderator first.

Craig
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2009, 05:43:52 PM »

PM to a moderator first.

Craig

done :)
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zander

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2009, 10:04:36 AM »

I had 1 of those rare conversations about hell/religion the other day with someone who believed in hell contritely.

I said i also believed in the tooth fairy.

She laughed saying there was no such thing and everone knew that.


How stupid some people are, hey?
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24 Grams

  • Guest
Re: HellHammers
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 09:32:14 PM »

Hi all.

You're true but remember (Rom. 14)...

Also I think it is worth considering we are no better than them. After all we cannot boast because it was God that gave us this knowledge, and without this we would believe the same.

Thanks.

Ovi
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