bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables  (Read 12592 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

9440geoff

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2009, 01:50:48 PM »

Hi Joe,

This is a tremendous thread that goes on and on. I have enjoyed every post, and I thank God that He gave you the wisdom to start it. Also, I have wanted to contribute to it but until today felt that I had nothing to offer. However, this 'offering' is more of a question as I have never been good at parables, and rely on Ray's teaching most of the time, as well as posts on this forum.

Practically every day I remind myself of the verse   "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev 18:4. because the social side of 'church' is a tug at the heartstrings.

I know that Ray has said every verse in the bible has a witness, and so during some study I read in the gospel of John:

Joh 10:1  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3  To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6  This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

My question is , is this a witness verse, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Geoff
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2009, 05:14:51 PM »


I know you all know this, but we are in a war, everyday of our lives all day.


Hi Aktikt,

You know we may lose many battles in this spiritual warfare but through the One who never lost, who never came up short we all will ultimately win this war.

Peace,

Joe

Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2009, 05:48:51 PM »

Hi Joe,

This is a tremendous thread that goes on and on. I have enjoyed every post, and I thank God that He gave you the wisdom to start it. Also, I have wanted to contribute to it but until today felt that I had nothing to offer. However, this 'offering' is more of a question as I have never been good at parables, and rely on Ray's teaching most of the time, as well as posts on this forum.

Practically every day I remind myself of the verse   "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev 18:4. because the social side of 'church' is a tug at the heartstrings.

I know that Ray has said every verse in the bible has a witness, and so during some study I read in the gospel of John:

Joh 10:1  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3  To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:6  This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

My question is , is this a witness verse, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Geoff

Hi Geoff,

I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

If one looks at what you quoted from the Gospel of John not only is it a witness to Rev 18:4 but actually gives it added depth. It is a beautiful and wondrous thing when we see for ourselves (through His Spirit) how intertwined all scripture really is and how it all eventually crystallizes into One thing;

Christ is the Savior of all!

Read Psalm 95 which is a witness to John 10 (and by extension Rev 18:4).  ;)

Even so there is a time and season for each person to come to this realization, it is only by spiritual discernment which is a gift from God that opens up the giant parable that is His Word. We can see what the ultimate conclusion of our Lord's work results in but for the vast majority they can only see the first portion of God's plan and purpose, the complete work is yet hidden to them. This is why we should have compassion and mercy toward those who vehemently oppose the knowledge given us, anger with the spiritually blinded makes as much sense as anger toward a physically blind person who cannot differentiate red from blue. 

Peace,

Joe
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2009, 06:37:31 PM »

Hi All,

I just noticed this as I was researching something else (happens often). This fits right into what Geoff presented earlier in the thread. Perhaps some of you are already familiar with this but it is new to me;

 
 Luke 6

 13And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

 14Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,

 15Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,

 16And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

I must admit total ignorance here as I have always assumed/believed/thought that the apostles were chosen first and the disciples were those who sort of were hangers on maybe like groupies or hero worshipers who were rather fickle and would follow whatever was the "flavor of the day" or newest thing happening.

From what I am perceiving from Luke is that they all started as disciples (temporarily intrigued and excited) and were chosen to be apostles at a later time. Of course we know that any and all truly chosen were created to be of the elect from the beginning but what I am seeing here is that the process of called then chosen is the pattern Jesus established during His earthly ministry.

Like I said before this is the first time I noticed it, this could very well be old news to many of you.

Peace,

Joe
 
Logged

cjwood

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2009, 06:48:05 PM »


the vast majority they can only see the first portion of God's plan and purpose, the complete work is yet hidden to them. This is why we should have compassion and mercy toward those who vehemently oppose the knowledge given us, anger with the spiritually blinded makes as much sense as anger toward a physically blind person who cannot differentiate red from blue.  


joe,
as geoff brought forth the spiritual witness for rev. 18:4 in john 10:3, my eyes were opened to the spiritual witness of these 2 scriptures also for the first time. reading the witnesses in the scriptures as they connect to each other and intertwine with each other, i sit here amazed at how intricately our Father set for His Words.

and the statement you made that i have noted above in green, was just so simple yet so profound. i have never, ever thought of this in this way. thank you my dear brothers in Christ for your hearts for His Word and His Truths, and thank You Heavenly Father for opening my eyes yet again. i pray that You will continue to feed us from Your bounty. in Jesus Christ's Name. amen.

claudia

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 04:03:13 AM by cjwood »
Logged

bluzman

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2009, 07:20:04 PM »

Hi Joe,
When He was up on the mountain with His disciples (students), how many were up there with Him?
At daybreak He called them all to Him and out of these He chose the 12 apostles.
I hope that I'm not off base here or out of line in answering you post.
Peace, Bluzman
Logged

buckhunter

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2009, 12:42:38 AM »

Hey Joe,
      I was watching the video of the Chrysalis morphing into the Butterfly and it was truly amazing. It brought to my remembrance what I had heard some time ago. To save money, many times the WCG local congregation would use silk flowers as the arrangement. On the "holy days" they were always real. As long as you were across the room you could not tell whether they were "real" or "fake".  However, the closer you were to the flowers the more apparent it became. Those that were made by man became less and less perfect the closer you looked until you knew they were made by the hand of man. Those made by God became more and more perfect until you knew they were made by Him. The closer you look at something God has made the more orderly it becomes-the more beautiful those things are. This shows me that what man does is only a shadow of what he will be able to do when he is granted real life in the family of God.

                                                Jim
Logged

Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2009, 08:18:22 AM »

 God is a consuming fire. The burning bush that didn't get destroyed.

Roy
Logged

larissa4676

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2009, 01:44:30 AM »

Very Very Good Posts! My kids are chapters 17, 16, 11, 3 and 1 of my life of parables. Ok. Even that sentence is a parable. Amazing!
Logged

ez2u

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2009, 02:57:37 AM »

 What a wonderful thread  really open up my mind to the creation of God.  Not to be anger because those around us are walking in darkness,  seeing the parables in every day life and knowing God is choosing us by this witness of having his truth.  Praise God 
doesn't this just make you wanta grow and grow and grow!!!even though its through suffering?  now we can understand and look at our trials and hardness of our life differently.  peggy  the sheep are feeding and it is good
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 11:48:45 AM by ez2u »
Logged

bluzman

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2009, 10:04:01 PM »

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly"
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2009, 02:28:39 PM »


Has anyone else seen a parable inside the parable that theyve seen?


I must have missed this one earlier....... Yes there certainly are parables within parables, as well as riddles that must be scrutinized and studied, sometimes though (and I like these the best) we find new meanings in familiar verses that His Spirit has opened up to us.

Here is one that I find compelling, and it also provides more evidence that salvation is not a "one shot deal" where one is lost forever if not among those called and chosen in this age.

Remember these familiar verses?


Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake1223, those days shall be shortened.

Mar 13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake,1223, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

Rather than "for the elect's sake" it appears it really should be saying "through the elect" as in "through the elect those days were shortened."

We know the elect will hold key positions in bringing salvation (through Christ) to the rest of humanity.


Obadiah 1:21  And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Hebrews 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 
Looking at the Greek word dia could these verses have been clearer in the translation, actually doesn't the present translation tend to obscure the real (hidden) truth? Although there is merit in the translation the way it written knowing the original and primary definition of the Greek word adds depth to it.

Peace,

Joe



Logged

Ninny

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2009, 08:47:07 AM »

Hey, yes, Joe! That makes a LOT of sense!
"through the elect" I have puzzled over that verse a lot! :D
Kathy ;)
Logged

OBrenda

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2009, 10:00:55 AM »

Joe,

That filled me with WONDER and AWE!
I just can't imagine being apart of this process...

 :o
Brenda
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2009, 10:31:26 AM »


Hi Joe,

As I was thinking about this in the beginning of this chapter in Matt. the disciples had ask Jesus "what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

Mat 24:3  As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

So now am thinking that down in verse 22 isn't Christ still talking about the end of this present age that the days will be shortened?

Mat 24:22 "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 

What do you think, just wondering about that?

mercy, peace andlove
Kat

Logged

Dennis Vogel

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2970
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2009, 11:55:06 AM »

I asked Ray to comment on this subject. He replied:

Denny:

There is more to understanding a Scripture than to just looking up the Greek or Hebrew words or checking various translations.  Just because a certain word can mean this of that doesn't mean that it should be translated this way or that way. Here are some proofs that "through" the Elect is decided not the proper translation of Matt. 24:22--

[1]  Before we ask whether it is the Lord Who shortens those days or whether the Chosen Elect shortens those days, we need to ask just how would the Elect have the ability to "shorten days" in the first place?  This seems clearly out of the realm of possibility for mere mortals to accomplish.

[2]  I know of no translation that translates "for" the elect's sake as "through the elect."  "For" does seem to be the proper translation, or at least a word meaning "for," such as "on account of" (Emphatic Diaglott); or "yet, because of" (Concordant Literal New Testament);  "for the sake of" (New Revised Standard Version), etc.  The meaning is clear that it is "for or because of" of the Elect that these days will be shortened, not "by means of" the Elect.

[3]  If it is the actual coming of Christ that shortens this destructive period of time, and the Elect are the instrumentality through which this shortening takes places, then they would of necessity, have to know when Jesus would have to come, but we are clearly told that "...of the day and hour knows no man" (Matt. 24:36).

[4]  When all else fails check the parallel prophecies in the synoptic gospels to see if the wording makes it any clearer.  Obviously most all translators have done this, and therefore did not make a mistake when they translated Matt. 24:22 as "FOR" the elect's sake.  Notice the parallel in Mark's account of this very same prophecy:

Mar 13:20  "And except that the Lord had shortened those days [Who shortened those days?  The Elect?  NO, 'the LORD'] , no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days [Who? 'He (the LORD) has shortened']."  There is the absolute irrefutable answer as to Who shortens these days--the Elect or the LORD.

God be with you,

Ray

Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2009, 12:45:48 PM »


Rather than "for the elect's sake" it appears it really should be saying "through the elect" as in "through the elect those days were shortened."

We know the elect will hold key positions in bringing salvation (through Christ) to the rest of humanity.


Obadiah 1:21  And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Hebrews 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 
Looking at the Greek word dia could these verses have been clearer in the translation, actually doesn't the present translation tend to obscure the real (hidden) truth? Although there is merit in the translation the way it written knowing the original and primary definition of the Greek word adds depth to it.

Peace,

Joe



I appreciate the critique as it will challenge me to continue to study the patterns within the scriptures as well as the depths of verses rather than one singular understanding or meaning.

The point I was trying to make is not that there was no truth in the way these 2 verses were translated but rather when we look at the original Greek there is more treasure to be mined and they are not necessarily in conflict!

Aren't the elect going to be the workers of the great harvest? Isn't Christ going to work through the elect bringing humanity to Him and His Father?

From Lake of Fire Part 6;


If you have never experienced COMING OUT of Babylon the Great, then maybe you are being called to respond to Godís plea: "Come OUT of her MY PEOPLE." It is a great and wonderful thing to be called by God at this time to be prepared as the very SONS OF THE LIVING GOD to bring salvation to the rest of the world and the entirety of the universe!

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

Peace,

Joe


Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2009, 03:01:25 PM »


Hi Jacob,

I wondering if this means that the length of the daytime period will be shortened.  It seems to me that this is saying that God will not let the world continue on it's present course towards complete debauchery.  No, He will step in and Christ will return, thus He will shorten the number of days that the present course this world is on.  It's for the Elect sake because they are living in this world and cry out for Him to do something.

Rev 6:9  When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened...

"Days should be shortened" reminds me of another phrase that He uses in Revelation "I come quickly."

Rev 3:11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Just a few thoughts on this subject.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

Ninny

  • Guest
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2009, 03:38:04 PM »

That is interesting, though, isn't it? I have often thought of what the meaning of those words might be..literal days, being literally shortened or the time for Christ's returned being shortened because of the elect and  the pain they are in..and the circumstances...you have to think of how that might be, people have suffered a great deal through the years and endured hardship, pain, and death for professing Jesus...wow! What will change because of the "elect"?
Kathy ???
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4122
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Parables, more Parables, everywhere Parables
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2009, 05:45:48 PM »

Let me ask it this way:  Has there ever been a day go by or a circumstance we find ourselves in that He doesn't/hasn't/will not have performed His will for our sake?  Has He not framed Evil and shown mercy?  He's 'lengthened' and 'shortened' all the days/events/circumstances/periods of our lives to bring us to where we've been, are, and are going.  His will be done.

Does it need to be said that He's done it all without literally and physically shortening the literal and physical 24-hour-day?  At least not routinely, we can all agree.   :D   
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.065 seconds with 27 queries.