Destiny of OT prophets

[lferretj]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3060.45

I was reading this old thread on the final outcome for the OT prophets--the concensus was that they would come up in the 2nd resurrection as they did not receive the promise stated in Hebrews 11.  In the thread "What is the Gospel of the Kingdom" (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html) it reads like those who are in the Kingdom of God are those few/chosen who will be in the first resurrection.  My question is where do Matthew 8:11 and Luke 13:28 fit in when it states the prophets will be in the Kingdom of Heaven/God.  Any clarification on these verses and destiny of the OT prophets would be helpful. 
   Thanks

lferretj

[hillsbororiver]

Hi lferretj,

Perhaps Paul can clarify this point you raise, it is all about the promise, the New Covenant!

Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Peace,

Joe

[lferretj]

Thank you for your reply.  I realize it is about the promise and that the OT prophets prepared the way for us now to have the better thing.  The two verses however seem to state that the OT prophets will also be in the Kingdom of God and not just in God's family (see reply from Ray below).

Matthew 8:10-12 NKJV When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Luke 13:28-29 NKJV There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

Maybe their is a better translation that would shed some light on this dilemma? 


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1529.0

Dear Laura:
The "Kingdom of God" is the kingdom that will rule the nations under the Kingship of Jesus Christ, composed of lesser kings, lords, priests, and judges.  These kings, lords, priests, and judges, are composed of the ranks of God's Chosen Elect Saints.

Only those worthy of the First resurrection from the death will ever rule with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Those who are judged, purified and saved in the Great White Throne Judgment will be in God's family, but they will never be rulers with Christ.

And don't ask any more detailed questions on this, because it would take hours to answer you, and I just don't have the time. Much of this material is already covered in my Lake of Fire series. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray

[hillsbororiver]

I guess I don't understand the question, sorry.

The OT Prophets will be in His Kingdom (after their purging) but they will not rule and reign with Christ in the next age(s).

They are the "first" the elect are the "last."

Mat 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Surely there will be someone who can provide a better answer.

Peace,

Joe

[aqrinc]

lferretj,

My understanding is that they will not receive The Promise before the believers of The Church Age, but will recieve It (The Promise) at The Same Time. Using the three different versions, here is the answer.

Heb 11: 39-40 (MKJV)
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
40  for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.

Heb 11: 39-40 (CLV)
39 And these all, being testified to through faith, are not requited with the promise of God concerning us"
40 (the looking forward is to something better), that, apart from us, they may not be perfected."

Heb 11: 39-40 (GNB)
39  What a record all of these have won by their faith! Yet they did not receive what God had promised,
40  because God had decided on an even better plan for us. His purpose was that only in company with us would they be made perfect.

george.

[lferretj]

Actually in a way you answered my question--I suspected that once the OT prophets are purged in the Lake of Fire they would be admitted into the Kingdom of God not to reign but to live.  I guess the way I think about it is with an analogy of a real Kingdom: God the Father is the King, Jesus is the Firstborn Prince, the Elect would be the rest of the Royal Family(Sons and Daughters), and everyone else would eventually be those inside the city walls.  It only confused me because it also talked about the "sons of the kingdom" being cast off with weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Correct me if I'm wrong but would this show that their is also an order as to when those thrown into the Lake of Fire will be ready to enter the Kingdom, and maybe the OT prophets would be the first to emerge?  
lferretj

George: Wrote the above before I read your post--which resurrection do you understand the OT prophets to be in?  Don't the Church Age believers receive it in the 1st resurrection, would you then say the OT prophets are in the 1st resurrection?  Just trying to understand your post.

[lferretj]

Sorry to resurrect an old post but i got busy with life and didn't have a chance until now to finish thinking about this topic--please bear with me. 

     Is their another catagory of people other than the few chosen the many called such as others that are not called?  Who fits into the many called catagory if the few chosen are the elect? I guess I thought the many called would be those, say, in mystery babylon who call themselves "christians".  Where would the unbelievers and those that never heard the gospel fit, are they also part of the many?  Does everyone get to be in the Kingdom of God or just the many and the few and how are those categories defined?  I hope you understand what I'm asking.  Do the OT prophets fit into the many called category or somewhere else?  Maybe I'm just making this more complicated than it is--any clarification would be helpful.  Am I correct to say only the few elect will be in the first resurrection and everyone else would be in the second resurrection--including the many, the OT prophets, and the unbelievers and those that never heard?
     Confused
         lferretj

[aqrinc]

Hi lferretj,

Try this from MKJV & CLV for Luke 13: 25-30 as this gets the context a lot better. This was being addressed to the multitude (Jews & Pharisee), as being the ones cast out.


Luk 13: 25-30
25  And once the Master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and He shall answer and say to you, I do not know you; from where are you;

26  then you shall begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You have taught in our streets.

27  But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!
28  There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.

29  And they will come from the east and the west, and from the north and the south, and will recline in the kingdom of God.
30  And behold, there are last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last.

Luk 13: 25-30 (CLV)
25 From which time the householder should be roused and latch the door, and you should be beginning to stand outside and to be knocking at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' and answering, he will be declaring to you, 'I am not acquainted with you! Whence are you?'"

26 Then should you be beginning to say, 'We ate and drank in your sight, and in our squares you teach!'"
27 He also will be declaring: 'I am saying to you, I am not acquainted with you! Whence are you? Withdraw from me, all workers of injustice!'"

28 There will be lamentation and gnashing of teeth, whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, yet you cast outside."

29 And they will be arriving from east and west and from north and south and will be made to recline in the kingdom of God.
30 And lo! they are last who will be first, and they are first who will be last."

?
Mat 8: 10-12 (WNT)
10  Jesus listened to this reply, and was astonished, and said to the people following Him, "I solemnly tell you that in no Israelite have I found faith as great as this.
11  And I tell you that many will come from the east and from the west and will recline at table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the Heavens,
12  while the natural heirs of the Kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside: there will be the weeping aloud and the gnashing of teeth."

(Natural Israel Carnal )

Mat 8: 10-12 (BWE)
10 Jesus was surprised when he heard this. He said to the people who followed him, 'I tell you the truth. I have not found any Jew who believes as this man does.
11 I tell you, many people will come from the east and from the west. They will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But those who were born in the kingdom will be put into the darkness outside. There they will cry and make noises with their teeth.'


george.

[Kat]

Hi lferretj,

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This Scripture passage explains who is in the second resurrection, as only the Elects names are in the book of life/Jesus Christ and have already been resurrected in the first resurrection, at the time when the rest of the dead are raised.  So all the rest of humanity that are not "in" Jesus Christ are in the second resurrection/Great White Throne Judgment. 


Hi George,

Luke 13:28 "...as ye see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and, yourselves being thrust forth outside."

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees/Jews, that is who "yourselves" in this verse is. Verse 30 explains "And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last."  Jesus came to the Jewish people first, when He was on earth, so this verse is saying they will actually be the last to be saved.   

Here is a short excerpt from an email.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm ------

Not all of the JEWS that call Jesus "Lord, Lord" will "enter" the narrow gate to the Kingdom, will they?  No they won't. (Matt. 7:21).  Even of those Jews who "seek to enter" will "NOT BE ABLE"   (Luke 13:24).  They are the FIRST TO BE CALLED, but they will not be the FIRST TO ENTER.

    "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye [Gk: 'all of you'] shall see Abraham [Abraham was not a Jew], and Isaac [Isaac was not a Jew], and Jacob [Jacob was not a Jew] and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [JEWS] yourselves thrust out.  And they shall come from the east [Jews?  No, GENTILES], and from the west [Gentiles], and from the north [etc.], and from the south, and shall sit down IN THE KINGDOM of God" (Luke 13:28-29).

The Jews should have been FIRST, but the Patriarchs and the Gentiles will enter before them. The Jews will NOT ENTER FIRST!
------------------------------------------------------------

So it seems that these Jews will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth," because as verse 30 says "first (Jews) who will be last (to enter the kingdom)."  So in verse 28 it seems that Jesus is just telling those Jews how it will be, that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets will enter the kingdom before they do.  At least that is my understanding of this.  Hope it is of some help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[aqrinc]

Hi George,

Luke 13:28 "...as ye see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and, yourselves being thrust forth outside."

You are totally correct Kat, that was my first explanation in the post, then for some unexplained reason i changed it. Thanks for the correction and Rays excerpt that nails it down.

george.

[lferretj]

That makes much more sense, thank you all who posted
lferretj

[daywalker]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3060.45

I was reading this old thread on the final outcome for the OT prophets--the concensus was that they would come up in the 2nd resurrection as they did not receive the promise stated in Hebrews 11.  In the thread "What is the Gospel of the Kingdom" (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html) it reads like those who are in the Kingdom of God are those few/chosen who will be in the first resurrection.  My question is where do Matthew 8:11 and Luke 13:28 fit in when it states the prophets will be in the Kingdom of Heaven/God.  Any clarification on these verses and destiny of the OT prophets would be helpful. 
   Thanks

lferretj

Hello lferretj,

The answer to your question is twofold. The first part is that this, of course, is a parable. Jesus is telling the Pharisees that Israel will be "cast out" of their rightful kingdom by birth... but only for a time, as the "last will be first, and the first will be last". Thus, He is also saying that they, the Pharisees and all of Israel [the first], shall enter [last].

On several occasions Jesus makes it clear that the generation in which He lived, would suffer greater judgments than those who lived before, and after them. He even said that Sodom and Gomorrha would receive lesser punishment [Matt 10:15].

Since we know that all are "judged according to their works", then would make sense that the Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets would enter into the Kingdom of God before the Pharisees and those of Christ's era who denied Him, and crucified Him. Thus, they will see people from all over entering into the Kingdom, with the Prophets, before them.

I believe the bolded parts of these Scriptures support this:


Matthew 8:11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30  And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Matthew 21:31  ...Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.


NOTICE: Christ never says that the Pharisees would never enter the kingdom of God... but that many would enter before them. This would most certainly include "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets".


Hope this clears it up for you,

- Daywalker