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[sansmile]

This is my first post on this forum. What i see through the Grace of God is that dying ...mortally ..of the flesh is the final conquering of carnality. None of us will know if we are of the elect until He comes back. He says to be called ,chosen and faithful. So, conquering the flesh is a daily battle ,the stronger the spirit is within us, the yolk becomes lighter. We still have the heavy yolk of christiandom..which ..is so hard to cast off, i just pray everyday for His will to be done in my life, i fight everyday with the flesh..but i look back each day at the bea :-\st and see him become fainter and fainter.  Am i right to think that way?

[rocky]

What i see through the Grace of God is that dying ...mortally ..of the flesh is the final conquering of carnality.

If LOF is yet future; after the resurrection, for the unjust, and it is to burn, destroy and purge carnal thinking out of man; then I don't see how carnal thinking can end at physical death.

But I see what u are saying too, carnal thinking is the result of being a "soul/living being".  The natural is first, soulish man, who is carnal.  Seems to me that if you take away the soul (physical death), be raised spiritual, then there would be no more carnal thots. 

Raise that person up in the resurrection, and then have a natural, carnal soul again?  makes no sense.   Sounds more like reincarnation than a resurrection.  I still dont' see how man is raised up in the resurrection a "carnal man/soul", or how carnal thinking can exist outside of the soul/natural living being.  It's as if we are saying, that which is first is natural, then natural again (in LOF, after resurrection), and then another resurrection later to a non carnal spirit.  There is no resurrection out of LOF that i have read. 

This is part of why my question above re: satan used for the destruction of the flesh.  We know that he is used to destroy the flesh, in order for the spirit to be saved.  Is this how flesh is destroyed for all men, both overcomers and non overcomers.  If for non overcomers, those in LOF, how can satan destroy flesh when he too will be in LOF?  If satan is only the agent used to destroy flesh in overcomers now, and not in LOF, then seems we have two different ways to have flesh/carnal thinking destroyed; one=satan for overcomers, and two=overcomers to destroy non overcomers (overcomers with Christ are LOF, as Joe and Ray have stated several posts above). 


     

[Craig]

What i see through the Grace of God is that dying ...mortally ..of the flesh is the final conquering of carnality.

If LOF is yet future; after the resurrection, for the unjust, and it is to burn, destroy and purge carnal thinking out of man; then I don't see how carnal thinking can end at physical death.

But I see what u are saying too, carnal thinking is the result of being a "soul/living being".  The natural is first, soulish man, who is carnal.  Seems to me that if you take away the soul (physical death), be raised spiritual, then there would be no more carnal thots. 

Raise that person up in the resurrection, and then have a natural, carnal soul again?  makes no sense.   Sounds more like reincarnation than a resurrection.  I still dont' see how man is raised up in the resurrection a "carnal man/soul", or how carnal thinking can exist outside of the soul/natural living being.  It's as if we are saying, that which is first is natural, then natural again (in LOF, after resurrection), and then another resurrection later to a non carnal spirit.  There is no resurrection out of LOF that i have read. 

This is part of why my question above re: satan used for the destruction of the flesh.  We know that he is used to destroy the flesh, in order for the spirit to be saved.  Is this how flesh is destroyed for all men, both overcomers and non overcomers.  If for non overcomers, those in LOF, how can satan destroy flesh when he too will be in LOF?  If satan is only the agent used to destroy flesh in overcomers now, and not in LOF, then seems we have two different ways to have flesh/carnal thinking destroyed; one=satan for overcomers, and two=overcomers to destroy non overcomers (overcomers with Christ are LOF, as Joe and Ray have stated several posts above). 
     

I emailed this question to Ray and this is his response.


Dear Forum:

This post is exactly WHY I have written the rule for our Forum. This is exactly what we do not want on the Forum. As no one in the above debate has an answer, WHY ARE THEY DEBATING? There are too many assumptions and contradictions in the above post to even be able to comment on it. Furthermore, I will not be roped into explaining the entire book of Revelation piece-meal in hundreds and hundreds of emails, anymore than I will explain my four-part series on "HELL" in an endless series of emails.

Who said that all saints have their flesh destroyed and purged by Satan?  Can Satan cast out Satan?

Satan has a "carnal mind," and yet he is spirit.  How so? Satan dines on dust--flesh--that is THE CARNAL MIND of man.  How is the carnal mind of Satan going to purify the carnal mind of man?  Satan's carnal mind needs more purifying that most men. 

Who said that there needs to be a "resurrection" at the end of one's period of Judgment in the Lake of Fire?  Just as those "who remain alive" are "changed" in an instant, so likewise changing those in Judgment would be no greater problem.

Where is the proof that the wicked are resurrected in perfect, GLORIFIED bodes to then enter Judgment?  I've heard of this teaching, but I have yet  to realize that I Cor. 15 is specifically speaking of the First Resurrection to Glory, not the Second resurrection to damnation. Will Hitler and Saddam's two sons be raised with "POWERFUL, GLORIFIED SPIRITAUL BODIES?"  I think not.  I'm afraid we will have to re-examine these teachings that I allowed to go unchallenged.

Why did Paul single out just one or two persons to be turned over to Satan so as to learn not to blaspheme, if indeed, ALL the Elect are turned over to him? Did Paul turn over Timothy to be destroyed by Satan?

Etc., etc., etc.

The Forum is NOT the place to solve all the mysteries of the book of Revelation. I realize that EVERYONE (and I mean virtually everyone) wants to be a teacher, but in most cases people cannot write but a few lines or paragraphs before they enter the realm of heresy.  I don't take my job lightly. I weight my words carefully, and yet I am not totally exempt from mistakes. Hopefully they are minor and small in number.

I will write on this subject in the future, but not today. I have many many people trying to pull me in every direction that they want rather than in the way that I am presently going. I would love to continue work on Part D of my "HELL" series, but I can't if I am continually distracted by some many other problems. Hope you understand.

God be with you all,

Ray

[Brett]

What i see through the Grace of God is that dying ...mortally ..of the flesh is the final conquering of carnality.

If LOF is yet future; after the resurrection, for the unjust, and it is to burn, destroy and purge carnal thinking out of man; then I don't see how carnal thinking can end at physical death.

But I see what u are saying too, carnal thinking is the result of being a "soul/living being".  The natural is first, soulish man, who is carnal.  Seems to me that if you take away the soul (physical death), be raised spiritual, then there would be no more carnal thots. 

Raise that person up in the resurrection, and then have a natural, carnal soul again?  makes no sense.   Sounds more like reincarnation than a resurrection.  I still dont' see how man is raised up in the resurrection a "carnal man/soul", or how carnal thinking can exist outside of the soul/natural living being.  It's as if we are saying, that which is first is natural, then natural again (in LOF, after resurrection), and then another resurrection later to a non carnal spirit.  There is no resurrection out of LOF that i have read. 

This is part of why my question above re: satan used for the destruction of the flesh.  We know that he is used to destroy the flesh, in order for the spirit to be saved.  Is this how flesh is destroyed for all men, both overcomers and non overcomers.  If for non overcomers, those in LOF, how can satan destroy flesh when he too will be in LOF?  If satan is only the agent used to destroy flesh in overcomers now, and not in LOF, then seems we have two different ways to have flesh/carnal thinking destroyed; one=satan for overcomers, and two=overcomers to destroy non overcomers (overcomers with Christ are LOF, as Joe and Ray have stated several posts above). 
     

I emailed this question to Ray and this is his response.


Dear Forum:

This post is exactly WHY I have written the rule for our Forum. This is exactly what we do not want on the Forum. As no one in the above debate has an answer, WHY ARE THEY DEBATING? There are too many assumptions and contradictions in the above post to even be able to comment on it. Furthermore, I will not be roped into explaining the entire book of Revelation piece-meal in hundreds and hundreds of emails, anymore than I will explain my four-part series on "HELL" in an endless series of emails.

Who said that all saints have their flesh destroyed and purged by Satan?  Can Satan cast out Satan?

Satan has a "carnal mind," and yet he is spirit.  How so? Satan dines on dust--flesh--that is THE CARNAL MIND of man.  How is the carnal mind of Satan going to purify the carnal mind of man?  Satan's carnal mind needs more purifying that most men. 

Who said that there needs to be a "resurrection" at the end of one's period of Judgment in the Lake of Fire?  Just as those "who remain alive" are "changed" in an instant, so likewise changing those in Judgment would be no greater problem.

Where is the proof that the wicked are resurrected in perfect, GLORIFIED bodes to then enter Judgment?  I've heard of this teaching, but I have yet  to realize that I Cor. 15 is specifically speaking of the First Resurrection to Glory, not the Second resurrection to damnation. Will Hitler and Saddam's two sons be raised with "POWERFUL, GLORIFIED SPIRITAUL BODIES?"  I think not.  I'm afraid we will have to re-examine these teachings that I allowed to go unchallenged.

Why did Paul single out just one or two persons to be turned over to Satan so as to learn not to blaspheme, if indeed, ALL the Elect are turned over to him? Did Paul turn over Timothy to be destroyed by Satan?

Etc., etc., etc.

The Forum is NOT the place to solve all the mysteries of the book of Revelation. I realize that EVERYONE (and I mean virtually everyone) wants to be a teacher, but in most cases people cannot write but a few lines or paragraphs before they enter the realm of heresy.  I don't take my job lightly. I weight my words carefully, and yet I am not totally exempt from mistakes. Hopefully they are minor and small in number.

I will write on this subject in the future, but not today. I have many many people trying to pull me in every direction that they want rather than in the way that I am presently going. I would love to continue work on Part D of my "HELL" series, but I can't if I am continually distracted by some many other problems. Hope you understand.

God be with you all,

Ray

parsonssc,

Will ALL mankind become immortality in 1st and 2nd resurrection? If you know, I will be appreciate to answer me. I rather ask you first before Ray since he has been very busy.

Thanks

[Chris R]

Hello

Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 

 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 

For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  1Ti 2:4

Yes all men will receive immortality,  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.1Cr 15:23


Chris R