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Author Topic: A little worried... the Holy Spirit?  (Read 7001 times)

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: A little worried... the Holy Spirit?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2009, 10:11:43 PM »

Ryan, for any of us to relate the way we 'feel' during prayer or whatever would be as impossible as describing a color.  Take a few seconds and attempt to compose a paragraph that will accurately communicate blue.  Can't be done.  Too many shades.  Too many variables.  Too little skill with words.  Too little imagination from the reader.

Add to that impossibility, the fact that our feelings can and do often mislead us.  And sometimes they become like a drug...we'll do anything to get them.  That's what a lot of religion is...feelings-junkies jumping through hoops to get that thing we thought we once might have had back.  

They can be manipulated by others.  That's what a lot of religion is.  Preachers and prophets and ministers working hard to ramp us up, or bring us down, or make us 'feel' superior or inferior to them and others.

You're 17.  Don't tie yourself in knots trying to do something that most of us are struggling to undo.  He didn't create you and die for you so He could lose you.            
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Roy Martin

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Re: A little worried... the Holy Spirit?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2009, 10:30:42 PM »

By the way Ryan, I consider you to be a blessing. I hope to get to see you grow in Christ as I suspect that you will and are. Its very refreshing to see new growth as God draws them to Him. Please continue to share with us.

Roy
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smeacham

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Re: A little worried... the Holy Spirit?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2009, 11:38:14 PM »

Ryan,

A message for you: Genesis 32:24-32.

God bless you,
Steve
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Kat

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Re: A little worried... the Holy Spirit?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 10:54:39 AM »


Hi Ryan,

This section from the article 'Praying by God's Rules' is so profound to understanding about praying, so I'm bringing it here, I think it will help your understanding.

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm ---------------------------

AN AMAZING SCRIPTURE ON PRAYER HIDDEN IN THE KING JAMES

This Scripture will blow you away if you have never before seen it properly translated. Here it is first in the King James Version:

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom. 8:24-26).

Paul makes a connection between "hope and prayer." Hope is something we expect, but do not as yet experience. All of Christendom has this subject wrong when they claim that they are already in this life "saved" in the past tense. Paul tells us that we are "saved by hope," but if it is already a reality, then there is no need to still be hoping for it. He then states that, "Likewise…" (in the same way and manner) when it comes to praying, "we know NOT what we should pray for." Just as we do not yet SEE what it is that we "hope for" (we do not yet possess it), likewise we do not see what we are to "pray for" based on another one of God’s rules, not based on our ignorance (or ‘as we ought’). This much we can learn from the King James.

But the real problem with the King James is the next phrase "as we ought". That unfortunately does not carry the impact of what this most profound verse is telling us. The Greek word translated we ought is defined by Dr. Strong as follows:

G1163

de??

dei

die, deh-on'

“Third person singular active present of G1210; also de?�? deon which is neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) necessary (as binding): - beho
  • ved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ough[t]".


This is a dogmatic word—NECESSARY, BINDING, BEHOOVES, MUST BE, NEEDFUL.

Fifty-eight times this word die is translated "must;" and seven times "behooved;" and five times "must needs". When we read this verse in the King James and many versions that copy the King James, we get the feeling that Paul is stating that we just don’t know how to pray as well as we could or should pray. This is not the point of his declaration. Paul is stating that the knowledge necessary to pray according to what MUST BE (what God has already predestined and determined is and must be done in His plan and purpose), none of us are aware. None of us know for sure what MUST BE in God’s purpose, and so we cannot possibly always pray for what God desires for us to have. This being so then, God’s Spirit aids our infirmity in this area and helps us pray according to God’s will, which is just another way of saying according to what must be.

Notice how this word is emphatically used throughout the New Testament:

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not trouble: for all these things must [Gk; die] come to pass, but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24:6).

Jesus is not saying that these things "ought" come to pass, but rather they MUST come to pass.

Likewise: "…the Son of man must [Gk: die] suffer…" (Mark 8:31).
Not that He only "ought" to suffer. "…for such things must needs be…" (Mark 13:7).

"…the gospel must first be published…" (Mark 13:10).

"I must be about My Father’s business" (Luke 2:49).

"Ye must be born again" (John 3:7).
"…that He must rise again from the dead" (John 20:9).

"…we must through much tribulation…" (Acts 14:22), etc., etc., etc.

Prayer must be in accord with what "must be." Here are a couple of Versions that bring this out clearly:

"And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us , we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable" (Rom. 8:26, Young’s Literal Translation).

The word "behoove" means "necessary." Not what should or might be, but what is absolutely "necessary." And "necessary" is the first definition of this word in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.

"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings" (Rom. 8:26, Concordant Literal New Testament).

This Version and along with Young get the word order correct according to the Greek manuscripts, and therefore also showing that it is not "as we ought" that is being discussed, but "what must be".

Notice the word order from a few Interlinears:

"In like manner and also the Spirit jointly helps our weaknesses; for that which we should pray for according as it beho(o)ves [is ‘necessary’], we know not, but itself the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings inexpressible" (Rom. 8:26, Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Berry, Zondervan).

"In like manner and also the spirit helps the weaknesses of us; the for what we should pray as it behoves, not we know, but itself the spirit intercedes on behalf of us with groans unspoken" (Emphatic Diaglott Interlinear).

"AS-SAMELY YET AND THE spirit is-TOGETHER-supporting to-THE UN-FIRMNESS OF-US THE for ANY WE-SHOULD-BE-PRAYING according-to-WHICH IS-BINDING NOT WE-HAVE-PERCEIVED but SAME THE spirit IS-OVER-pleadING to-groanings UN-TALKED" (Concordant Greek Text, an Ultraliteral English Translation in the Sublinear). (All underlines are mine).

The reason that translators and expositors do not teach the truth on this verse is because they don’t believe it is true as written in the manuscripts. It appears from most translations and virtually all teaching on the subject of prayer, that they cannot believe the truth of this verse because it substantiates the Sovereignty of God and contradicts man’s fabled free will. To better understand what is being taught here on prayer, I will now quote Rom. 8:26 and continue through verses 27 and 28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

Now similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings. Now He Who is searching the hearts is aware what is the disposition of the spirit, for in accord with God [with God’s will] is it pleading for the saints. Now we are aware that God [KJV leaves out "God"] is working all together for the good [things don’t "work together for good" by themselves—ALL good comes from God—James 1:17] of those who are loving God…"

Let’s now understand this most profound truth. It isn’t just that, "…we know not what we should pray for as we ought…" No, it is much more profound then just that, it is that "….for we know not what we should pray for, to accord with what MUST BE, we are not aware…" Why does the spirit aid our infirmity? What is our infirmity? Our infirmity is that we don’t know what to pray for that will absolutely always be in accord with what must be God’s will, and God’s will is "what must be." And since none of us has perfect foreknowledge of what God’s will must be, God’s spirit aids those who are obedient to Him, in requesting and praying about, the right things, so our prayers aren’t in vain.

It is the will and plan and preordained purpose of God Almighty, that’s what "MUST BE." "THY WILL BE done" (Matt. 6:10). Yes, God’s will MUST be done—always! One day we will all come to believe and appreciate the fact that God is Sovereign. God is always right. God always does what is best and perfect. And so it is vain to pray for something that is NOT "in accord with what MUST BE".

And only then does verse 28 make sense. Things don’t "just happen" to people who love and obey God (as most translations suggest in this verse). No, we should now be willing to accept the truth, "…that GOD [The King James leaves out the ‘God’ in this verse as if things just work themselves out without God] is working all together for the good…" And how is it that God works?

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

And so, if we always pray according to God’s Will, with a clean conscience, obeying the commandments of God, and are aided by the Holy Spirit of God to pray only "in accord with what MUST BE," we will begin seeing answered prayer where we may have been frustrated in the past.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

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