Topic: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon? (Read 14154 times)

newoldstock · « **on:** July 28, 2009, 12:30:15 PM »

I know that Rev. tells us to come out of Babylon, but can't we come out spiritually without coming out physically? Would God perhaps want us to remain in Babylon physically in order to witness and become missionairies to the Christian lost? Is part of our goal as the elect to witness to the deceived in Church? To be where the lost abide, should be the best way to witness to the lost as in the example of Jesus. Or are the elect not called to witness to the lost as Jesus himself did? I am still confused on this. Please help. God Bless, newoldstock.

Kat · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:11:36 PM »

Hi newoldstock,

2Co 6:14 Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness?
v. 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever?
v. 16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It is my understanding that we are to come out of the church to separate ourselves from false teaching, because we need to first be trained and prepared. I do not think we are yet ready "to witness and become missionairies to the Christian lost," as that is the purpose of the next age when the Elect rule with Christ for that very purpose. Actually our witness to the church is in leaving it, I think that says it all.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you,
v. 18 And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to Me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Not even Jesus Christ is judging the world at this time, He did accomplish salvation for all with His sacrifice. But God is only dragging a few to Him at this time in this age, the rest will be judged and brought to salvation when Christ returns.

John 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
v. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
v. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

The time will come when He will judge the world, but for now we must wait for Him.

Act 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
v. 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

daywalker · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:12:32 PM »

Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 12:30:15 PM

I know that Rev. tells us to come out of Babylon, but can't we come out spiritually without coming out physically? Would God perhaps want us to remain in Babylon physically in order to witness and become missionairies to the Christian lost? Is part of our goal as the elect to witness to the deceived in Church? To be where the lost abide, should be the best way to witness to the lost as in the example of Jesus. Or are the elect not called to witness to the lost as Jesus himself did? I am still confused on this. Please help. God Bless, newoldstock.

Hello newoldstock,

Should we also attend Mormon services, and Muslim services, and Buddhist services? Of course not. God tells us to "be separate from them", that's ALL organized religions. Besides, if you remain in them, then the chances of you becoming deceived again are great!

II Corinthians 6:15 What accord has Christ with Be'lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Therefore come out from them, and BE SEPARATE FROM THEM, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean; then I will welcome you,

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and REND YOU.

Christ spoke in parables to the masses of humanity, and EVEN to the Church Leaders. It was only His Chosen Disciples that He revealed the "secrets to the kingdom of the heavens" to, as well as the interpretation of His Parables. There are reasons He did this. Who are we to do other than the example Christ set before us?

God is in control. If He wishes to use you to spread the Truth to those stuck in Babylon, then He will bring them to you. But--speaking from experience here--if you stay there and try to 'teach' those who desire not to 'hear' what you have to say, you'll be starting a raging fire you wish you hadn't.

Hope this helps your understanding,

Daywalker.

Marky Mark · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2009, 03:04:08 PM »

Newoldstock,a litte more to complement Kat and Daywalkers posts

. Hope it helps.

From Rays paper.

The Lake of Fire - Part X

THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?

The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!

"…you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2).

Where did the Ephesians try those false, lying, apostles? In some pagan temple or church down the street, or across town, or in some foreign land? Or maybe in the pagan religion of the Roman occupation? No, in the Church. Jesus Christ says:

"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write… thou have tried them which say they are apostles [in the church of Ephesus], and are not" (Rev. 2:1a & 2b).

Where did Jesus know these lying apostles? Why, in the Church, of course. Of what consequence would "lying apostles" of some pagan religion be to the churches of God in Asia?

And where did Jesus say the synagogue of Satan is located? Same place—in the Church:

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write… I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [in the Smyrna church], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan… And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write… I will make them of the synagogue of Satan [in the Philadelphia church], and are not but do lie…" (Rev. 2:8 & 9; 3:7 & 9).

All seven of the churches were well aware of many pagan gods and pagan religions. These seven cities in Asia were filled with MANY PAGAN GODS.

The non-believing Ephesians worshipped Diana, who was associated with Artimis. Smyrna had temples to Apollo, Asclepia, Aphrodite, Cybele, Emperor Tiberius, and Zeus, and maybe most important of all, the Temple of Athena. Pergamum worshiped, Zeus, Olympus, Athena, Dionysus, Asclepius ("The Saviour"), and also the God-Serpent and the God-Bull. Thyatira worshiped the Emperor, Thyatiran, Tyrimnos, and Pallas Athena. Sardis worshiped the goddess Artemis, and both goddesses Artemis and Cybele were commemorated on their local coinage. Philadelphia worshiped the sun god and serpent gods, although Dionysis was their major god. Laodicea worshiped Zeus Azeus and Men Karou.

Were these the false apostles and lying Jews of the synagogue of Satan. Was it the priests of these pagan gods and religions of the seven cities in Asia that God was warning the churches about?

Since when are the priests of paganism called APOSTLES? Since when are the followers of pagan religions and pagan gods called, LYING JEWS? Since when are the temples of Zeus and Athena and Diana called, SYNAGOGUES? No, these false apostles and lying Jews of the synagogue of Satan are in the churches of God.

And isn’t it ironic that in the two congregations that religious chart-makers tell us had NO spiritual flaws whatsoever, we find those residing who are specifically called, lying Jews? No, Smyrna and Philadelphia, down through the centuries, have exactly the same spiritual flaws and heresies as did all of the other five churches of Asia.

THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED

Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:

"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10).

"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13).

Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church.. His synagogue is in the Church.

And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.

Peace...Mark

newoldstock · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2009, 03:17:26 PM »

Great Commission fit in?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age." ISV
God draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and he chooses us, but Jesus commands us to proclaim him to all people everywhere and to baptise, to teach them to obey Him, and bring them into the sheepfold. How will they know if we don't tell them? At what point do we know that we are casting our pearls before swine?

daywalker · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2009, 03:34:30 PM »

Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 03:17:26 PM

Great Commission fit in?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age." ISV
God draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and he chooses us, but Jesus commands us to proclaim him to all people everywhere and to baptise, to teach them to obey Him, and bring them into the sheepfold. How will they know if we don't tell them? At what point do we know that we are casting our pearls before swine?

Answer: When they bite you; that's how you know.

There are many ways to 'spread the truth'. Ray does this through his site. I have a hubpage http://hubpages.com/profile/babylon_is_fallen. A few others here do as well. And still others are on Facebook or Myspace, etc. You don't need to continue to attend a local church to do this. In fact, we are specifically commanded to 'come out'.

We all here understand your thoughts. When I first started reading Ray's teachings, I wanted to tell everyone. But I soon found out that this was not the proper way to go, as I got put on my butt real quick. The Disciples spent 3 1/2 years with Christ before they were converted. Saul spent 3 years in study, prayer and meditation before he was ready to become the Apostle Paul.

Modern day Christians are so concerned with 'saving the world', they have lost the meaning of being 'saved'. They don't know what 'salvation' is. How can we 'save the world', unless we first know how to 'save ourselves'?

May God Guide You,

- Daywalker.

mharrell08 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:05:59 PM »

Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 03:17:26 PM

Great Commission fit in?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age." ISV
God draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and he chooses us, but Jesus commands us to proclaim him to all people everywhere and to baptise, to teach them to obey Him, and bring them into the sheepfold. How will they know if we don't tell them? At what point do we know that we are casting our pearls before swine?

Just an FYI on 'The Great Commission' (if anyone was curious) from Lake of Fire part 5 (http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html):

Jesus gave a parable about a father who commissioned one of his sons to do a job. The son said he would do what his father commissioned. However, he lied and did not do what his father commissioned. Jesus told those Pharisees that harlots would enter the kingdom before someone with an attitude like that, (Matt. 21:28-31)! Are we to believe that the very Son of God Himself is no better than this failing servant in Christ’s own parable?

What will it take before we really BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES? We hear a great deal these days about "THE GREAT COMMISSION," (as though those talking about it have a clue as to what it is). Teaching the gospel is certainly commanded by our Lord, but the greatest thing about the gospel is never taught by most evangelists. That Jesus Christ died to save a small fraction of sinners is only a small fraction of the gospel. And the gospel is not the Great Commission. Would you like to know what The Great Commission really is? Okay, here it is: "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent [Gk: apostello, to send out on a mission—commission] TO BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14)! See Second Witness in John 3:17. Now if anyone knows of a GREATER mission or commission than this, I am sure we would all like to know what it is?

Marques

newoldstock · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:11:25 PM »

humor and truth in this answer!

Answer: When they bite you; that's how you know.

Marky Mark · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:27:48 PM »

Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 03:17:26 PM

Great Commission fit in?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age." ISV
God draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and he chooses us, but Jesus commands us to proclaim him to all people everywhere and to baptise, to teach them to obey Him, and bring them into the sheepfold. How will they know if we don't tell them? At what point do we know that we are casting our pearls before swine?

SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 28:19
therefore

Peace...Mark

Also this email to Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,328.0.html

Dear Emmanuel:

Not to sound cute, Emmanuel, but I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.

Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.

Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.

God be with you,

Ray

newoldstock · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2009, 06:05:34 PM »

this statement of the adding to the word of God or glossing as it is sometimes referred to? I have never heard this before concerning this verse. Thanks, Jim.
"Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles."

daywalker · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:59:01 PM »

On that topic of Matt 28:19, I found this site which seems really helpful.

***no teaching links allowed***

I'm just reading it right now, myself, but thought I'd share it.

- Daywalker

Quote from: Marky Mark on July 28, 2009, 04:27:48 PM

Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 03:17:26 PM
Great Commission fit in?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age." ISV
God draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and he chooses us, but Jesus commands us to proclaim him to all people everywhere and to baptise, to teach them to obey Him, and bring them into the sheepfold. How will they know if we don't tell them? At what point do we know that we are casting our pearls before swine?

SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 28:19
therefore

Peace...Mark

Also this email to Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,328.0.html

Dear Emmanuel:

   Not to sound cute, Emmanuel, but I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.

   Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.

   Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.

   God be with you,

   Ray

hillsbororiver · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:29:57 PM »

I understand the question about why we are not commissioned to "spread the Word" when Matt 28:19 appears to say we should.

(Remember the entire bible is a parable)

What Ray states makes perfect sense, the task was given to the apostles to sow the seed of the (type/shadow) Kingdom. This was given to those flesh and blood apostles.

Once the church(es) is/are established and they beget more offspring (denominations) establishing even more and more doctrines, all the confusion the churches promote surpasses even the language issues experienced by the builders of the Tower of Babylon. (another parable you think?)

The corruption of the churches "waxes worse and worse" but a remnant of believers are called out, we have scriptural witnesses to substantiate this, are there any (scriptures) commanding a return to Babylon?

For any reason?

I am not aware of any yet if there are I am anxious to meditate on them and recalibrate my present understanding in view of a new Light, every little bit I am blessed to learn always reveals how much more I have to learn, understand and experience.

Back to the topic at hand;

Is this (Mat 28:19) yet another parable? Might we lose the meaning taking it only literally rather than literally to the flesh and blood apostles of Jesus's time as well as a prophecy of the Lord's command to His elect (after the change) to TRULY convert the nations!

I believe this was fulfilled in the flesh, but the better fulfillment will be in the ages to come!

Peace,

Joe

aqrinc · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2009, 11:39:18 PM »

Here are two translations that show what that command really meant, to make disciples in each of the nations; not to convert all the nations.

Words in brackets are mine.

Mat 28: 19
(RV) Go ye therefore, and make disciples of (from) all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:

(WNT) Go therefore and make disciples of (from) all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

george.

newoldstock · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:00:30 AM »

apostles of Jesus' time. It makes good spiritual sense. I do have a bit of a problem calling all scripture parable and none literal, but will read your whole post thread on that tonight. I have an open mind and heart to anything that is spiritual and does not set off my discernment alarm. I have a fear that it might cause us to throw out any scripture that disagrees with our convictions. Which ones do we throw out and which ones do we keep? I know a lot of folks that would like to think that the scriptures concerning too much wine and intoxication are parables and not literal so that they could tear them out and throw them away. I do think that your thoughts on instruction to the apostles is probably right on. Thank you very much for your time and kindness for framing your answers. Thank you all for your consideration. I need to read all on Ray's site asap. God Bless, newoldstock.

aqrinc · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:26:48 AM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 28, 2009, 09:29:57 PM

I understand the question about why we are not commissioned to "spread the Word" when Matt 28:19 appears to say we should.

(Remember the entire bible is a parable)

What Ray states makes perfect sense, the task was given to the apostles to sow the seed of the (type/shadow) Kingdom. This was given to those flesh and blood apostles.

Once the church(es) is/are established and they beget more offspring (denominations) establishing even more and more doctrines, all the confusion the churches promote surpasses even the language issues experienced by the builders of the Tower of Babylon. (another parable you think?)

The corruption of the churches "waxes worse and worse" but a remnant of believers are called out, we have scriptural witnesses to substantiate this, are there any (scriptures) commanding a return to Babylon?

For any reason?

I am not aware of any yet if there are I am anxious to meditate on them and recalibrate my present understanding in view of a new Light, every little bit I am blessed to learn always reveals how much more I have to learn, understand and experience.

Back to the topic at hand;

Is this (Mat 28:19) yet another parable? Might we lose the meaning taking it only literally rather than literally to the flesh and blood apostles of Jesus's time as well as a prophecy of the Lord's command to His elect (after the change) to TRULY convert the nations!

I believe this was fulfilled in the flesh, but the better fulfillment will be in the ages to come!

Peace,

Joe

Joe did not anywhere say to throw out anything in Scripture. The statement that:

(Remember the entire bible is a parable) is true, but not literally only a parable. All the Words in Scripture mean things, many things from the same words sometimes. Literal interpretations usually have a higher Spiritual meaning, or rather ever higher Spiritual meanings. There was a literal Ark Of The Covenant with physical Israel; This Represented a Higher Spiritual Ark Of The Covenant.

One of Ray's more memorable quotes for me is:

The words of the bible don't mean what they say; they mean what they mean, try that for a parable.

george.

newoldstock · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:55:45 AM »

just Joe. So I did not mean to say that Joe did say to throw out anything in Scripture. But it does seem to be the general consensus here that parts of those verses do not belong in scripture. Which ones do and which one don't? Who decides and how do they decide? I did do a Google search on Matt 28:19. The Oneness folks say it is a scribe add-on and the Trinitarians say it not (it is in all of my large collection of bible versions with no notes to indicate a problem) and they say it is the best verse in the bible indicating the doctrine of Trinity. Both sides show evidence to prove their point. I am not trying to argue or debate. I am trying to understand.

Everyone places their "spin" on the bible based on what they believe to be true. Only God for sure knows what is true. Once again, I started this thread in Christian love not to be divisive. I will continue to read and study the forum and Ray's site and keep my trap shut until I have a better grasp of Bible Truths after all I have been gone quite a while and need to get back up to speed.

NoviceBeliever · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:21:20 AM »

newoldstock: I hope this helps! NB

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html
HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2007

and this excerpt

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html

SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

The list below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf’s notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209

http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/T/Tischendorf,%20von%20Constantin%20-%20Discovery%20of%20Sinaitic%20Manuscript.pdf

The following words, found in our Common Version (King James Version) are not found in the Oldest Manuscripts, and are evidently no part of the Divine Word. Let each Berean go through his Bible, pencil in hand, and mark out these words: then read the passages affected and note the improvement. This list comprises all the important interpolations discovered to date.

The compiler has condensed this list. From the compiler’s point of view there exist very good reasons why everything in this list should be crossed out of our Bibles. Thus, when the interpolations are eliminated from Mark 14:30, 68, 72, the account agrees exactly with that given by the other evangelists. Or, take Luke 23:34: history shows that the Jews have been obliged as a race to expiate their crime. Or take John 4:9: it does not agree at all with Luke 9:52, which shows that even the Lord himself did have such dealings. Omitted from this list are the dozens of interpolations made by early copyists with the aim of making all the narratives uniform, and the hundreds of non-essential words, the addition of which does not affect the purity of the message. (Some of these passages have already been omitted by more modern translations such as the New American Standard or the New International Version, since they were translated from the more reliable, ancient manuscripts.)

Matt. 5:23
without a cause

Matt. 6:13
For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matt. 6:25
or what ye shall drink*

Matt. 16:2
When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

Matt. 16:3
This entire verse

Matt.17:21
and fasting

Matt.18:12
into the mountains

Matt. 2O:7
and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive

Matt. 22:13
and take him away

Matt. 23:35
son of Barachias*

Matt. 24:10
and shall hate one another*

Matt. 24:31
sound of a*

Matt. 24:41
women shall be

Matt. 25:6
cometh

Matt. 27:52
and the graves were opened*

Matt. 27: 53
and went*

Matt. 28:19
therefore

Mark 4:37
so that it was now full*

Mark 6:51
beyond measure and wondered

Mark 7:8
For as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things as ye do

Mark 7:14
unto me every one of you

Mark 9:24
with tears

Mark 9:29
and fasting

Mark 9:44
This entire verse

Mark 9:45
into the fire that shall never be quenched

Mark 9:46
This entire verse

Mark 9:47
fire

Mark 9:49
and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt

Mark 10:24
for them that trust in riches

Mark 10:30
houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands with persecutions*

Mark 14:30
twice*

Mark 14:68
and the cock crew

Mark 14:72
the second time*

twice*

Mark 16:9-20
All these verses

Luke 2: 40
in spirit

Luke 8:45
and sayest thou, Who touched me?

Luke 16:16
and every man presseth into it

Luke 17:12
which stood afar off*

Luke17:35
women

Luke 18:11
with himself*

Luke 22:43
This entire verse

Luke 22:44
This entire verse

Luke 22:68
me, nor let me go

Luke 23:5
teaching*

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father forgive them; for they know not what they do

Luke 24:42
and of an honeycomb

John 1:25
asked him, and*

John 3:13
which is in heaven

John 4:9
for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans

John 5:3
waiting for the moving of the water

John 5:4
This entire verse

John 5:25
and now is*

John 8:1-11
all these verses

John 8:59
going through the midst of them and so passed by

John 16:16
because I go to the Father

John 19:23
and also his coat*

John 21:25
This entire verse

Acts 6:3
Holy Ghost and (should read “spirit of”)

Acts 6:8
faith (should read “grace”)

Acts 8:37
This entire verse

Acts 9:31
churches (should read “church”)

were (should read “was”)

Acts 15:32
and confirmed them*

Acts 18:5
pressed in the spirit (should read “earnestly occupied with the Word“)

Acts 18:21
I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but

Rom. 3:22
and upon all

Rom. 6:12
it in

Rom. 7:6
that being dead (should read “being dead to that”)

Rom. 8:26
for us

Rom. 11:6
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work

Rom. 14:6
and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it

1 Cor. 2:1
testimony (should read “mystery”)

1 Cor. 6:20
and in your spirit, which are God’s

1 Cor. 7:5
fasting and

1 Cor. 10:28
for the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof

1 Cor. 15:24
cometh

2 Cor. 4:14
by (should read “with”)

Gal. 3:1
that ye should not obey the truth

Gal. 3:17
in Christ

Gal. 5:19
adultery

Gal. 5:21
murders

Eph. 5:9
Spirit (should read “light”)

Eph. 5:30
of his flesh, and of his bones

2 Thess. 2:9
Even him

1 Tim. 3:16
God (should read “who”)*

1 Tim. 4:12
in spirit*

1 Tim. 6:5
from such withdraw thyself*

2 Tim. 3:3
without natural affection*

Heb. 12:18
mount that might be touched and that burned with fire (should read “fire that might be touched and burned“)*

Heb. 12:20
or thrust through with a dart*

James 5:16
Confess your faults (should read “Therefore confess your sins”)*

1 Pet. 2:5
spiritual (before the word “sacrifices”)

1 Pet. 3:8
courteous (should read “humble”)

2 Pet. 1:1
God and our (should read “our Lord and”)*

1 John 3:16
of God

1 John 5:7
in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth

1 John 5:13
and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Rev. 1:17
unto me, Fear not*

Rev. 2:22
their (should read “her”)*

Rev. 5:3
neither under the earth*

Rev. 5:9
us (omitted by the Alexandrian Ms., one of the three oldest Mss. known)

Rev. 5:10
us (should read “them”)

we (should read “they”)

Rev. 5:13
and under the earth*

Rev. 6:2
to conquer (should read “he conquered”)*

Rev. 9:4
neither any green thing*

Rev. 9:13
the four horns of*

Rev. 10:6
and the sea, and the things which are therein*

Rev. 11:17
and art to come*

Rev. 12:12
inhabiters of* of (before the words “the sea”)

Rev. 14:5
before the throne of God*

Rev. 14:12
here are they*

Rev. 16:5
and shalt be (should read “the holy”)*

Rev. 16:7
another out of*

Rev. 16:11
and their sores*

of their deeds*

Rev. 16:17
from the throne*

Rev. 18:22
of whatsoever craft he be*

and the stone of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee*

Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*

Rev. 21:24
of them which are saved*

and honor*

Rev. 21:26
and honor*

Rev. 22:3
more*

* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript. These not thus marked are omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts. The Epistles to Timothy, the latter part of Hebrews, and all of Revelation, are missing from the Vatican Manuscript, No. 1209, having been lost during the fifteen or more centuries since it was written. The Sinaitic Manuscript is perfect and complete and is the oldest known copy of the Scriptures, having been written (it is believed) in the year 331 A.D.

http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm

aqrinc · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:22:02 AM »

Quote from: newoldstock on July 29, 2009, 01:55:45 AM

just Joe. So I did not mean to say that Joe did say to throw out anything in Scripture. But it does seem to be the general consensus here that parts of those verses do not belong in scripture. Which ones do and which one don't? Who decides and how do they decide? I did do a Google search on Matt 28:19. The Oneness folks say it is a scribe add-on and the Trinitarians say it not (it is in all of my large collection of bible versions with no notes to indicate a problem) and they say it is the best verse in the bible indicating the doctrine of Trinity. Both sides show evidence to prove their point. I am not trying to argue or debate. I am trying to understand. Everyone places their "spin" on the bible based on what they believe to be true. Only God for sure knows what is true. Once again, I started this thread in Christian love not to be divisive. I will continue to read and study the forum and Ray's site and keep my trap shut until I have a better grasp of Bible Truths after all I have been gone quite a while and need to get back up to speed.

newoldstock,

Sorry if you think i was arguing, no just making a point about that particular statement.

Here is a link to the spurious passages:

The list below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf’s notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html

Please do not think for a minute that anything you asked or stated, was in the slightest bit offensive to me. We all come here to learn and fellowship, not to find fault with each other. Put on your armor and cover my back, i will cover yours; isn't that what soldiers on the same side do?.

The words in red below are from Jesus Christ Himself:

Joh 6:63 (CLV)
63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

64 But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus had perceived from the beginning who those are who are not believing, and who it is that gives Him up."

Peace brother, we fight on the same side; and for One Master, Jesus Christ our Lord And King.

george.

ericsteven · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:28:30 AM »

I’m hope I’m not making a big deal out of this, but I’m at a loss as to understanding why Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages is being used to show that the whole of Matthew 28:19 is spurious. According to his list, the only word in the verse that is spurious is the word “therefore.”

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

According to him, the verse should read:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The truth is that the “triune formula,” so to speak, is present in most all of the early manuscripts that we have, including the two oldest Greek manuscripts: the Sinaitic and the Vatican, on which Tischendorf based his list.

I said “most all” of the early manuscripts above because according to the following references, two of them don’t even contain the end of Matthew for whatever reason.

-- F.C. Conybeare - Fellow of University College, Oxford, and Professor of Theology at the University of Oxford.
In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are gone which contained the end of Matthew.

-- Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics
In all extant versions the text is found in the traditional form, though it must be remembered that the African old Latin and the old Syriac versions are 'defective at this point.’

The "older reading" being referred to would be something close to the following:

Matthew 29:19 Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations in my name.

So, since we have no early manuscript evidence that the “triune formula” is spurious, we must make that determination using other methods, most importantly through the use of the rest of Scripture itself, as Ray tried briefly alluded to in his email response to Gerhard:

"Did the Apostles EVER baptize ANYONE in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? No, no they didn't. They baptized in the name of Jesus only. Therefore, this section of your Bible is not even Scripture in the first place."

My point, though is not to go into that, but to say that I think maybe we should be more careful about throwing Tischendorf’s list around as if it is the end all be all of the spurious texts in the Bible.

Ray said in that email that the phrase “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” is spurious, and I believe him. However neither he nor we can nor should use Tischendorf’s list to prove that, seeing as how not only does the list not show that the whole verse is spurious, but also the spurious phrase being discussed is present in both manuscripts on which the list is based.

I hope I’m not coming across as contentious. I just think that if we are going to point someone in a correct direction regarding a specific false doctrine we need to use accurate information and sources so the person doesn’t end up becoming more confused than when he/she started.

That said, if I misunderstood the intention for posting Dr. Tischendorf's list, I do apologize.

Eric

hillsbororiver · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2009, 09:44:33 AM »

Quote from: aqr on July 29, 2009, 01:26:48 AM

Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 28, 2009, 09:29:57 PM
I understand the question about why we are not commissioned to "spread the Word" when Matt 28:19 appears to say we should.

(Remember the entire bible is a parable)

What Ray states makes perfect sense, the task was given to the apostles to sow the seed of the (type/shadow) Kingdom. This was given to those flesh and blood apostles.

Once the church(es) is/are established and they beget more offspring (denominations) establishing even more and more doctrines, all the confusion the churches promote surpasses even the language issues experienced by the builders of the Tower of Babylon. (another parable you think?)

The corruption of the churches "waxes worse and worse" but a remnant of believers are called out, we have scriptural witnesses to substantiate this, are there any (scriptures) commanding a return to Babylon?

For any reason?

I am not aware of any yet if there are I am anxious to meditate on them and recalibrate my present understanding in view of a new Light, every little bit I am blessed to learn always reveals how much more I have to learn, understand and experience.

Back to the topic at hand;

Is this (Mat 28:19) yet another parable? Might we lose the meaning taking it only literally rather than literally to the flesh and blood apostles of Jesus's time as well as a prophecy of the Lord's command to His elect (after the change) to TRULY convert the nations!

I believe this was fulfilled in the flesh, but the better fulfillment will be in the ages to come!

Peace,

Joe

Joe did not anywhere say to throw out anything in Scripture. The statement that:

(Remember the entire bible is a parable) is true, but not literally only a parable. All the Words in Scripture mean things, many things from the same words sometimes. Literal interpretations usually have a higher Spiritual meaning, or rather ever higher Spiritual meanings. There was a literal Ark Of The Covenant with physical Israel; This Represented a Higher Spiritual Ark Of The Covenant.

One of Ray's more memorable quotes for me is:

The words of the bible don't mean what they say; they mean what they mean, try that for a parable.

george.

Thanks George for clarifying my point, I certainly would not suggest any limitations on the Word of God, I am a firm believer that the depth of His Word is beyond our total comprehension (presently), by that I mean scripture is true on many levels some of which we barely scratch the surface. That does not exclude it also being true in a literal sense as well, therein lies the parable.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

I think the above verse is very applicable to our learning process as we gain any godly wisdom through this journey.

Peace,

Joe

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Author Topic: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon? (Read 14154 times)

newoldstock

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