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Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
daywalker:
On that topic of Matt 28:19, I found this site which seems really helpful.
***no teaching links allowed***
I'm just reading it right now, myself, but thought I'd share it.
- Daywalker 8)
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on July 28, 2009, 01:27:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 12:17:26 PM ---Great Commission fit in?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age." ISV
God draws us to himself through the Holy Spirit and he chooses us, but Jesus commands us to proclaim him to all people everywhere and to baptise, to teach them to obey Him, and bring them into the sheepfold. How will they know if we don't tell them? At what point do we know that we are casting our pearls before swine?
--- End quote ---
SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
Matt. 28:19
therefore
Peace...Mark
Also this email to Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,328.0.html
Dear Emmanuel:
Not to sound cute, Emmanuel, but I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.
Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.
Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
hillsbororiver:
I understand the question about why we are not commissioned to "spread the Word" when Matt 28:19 appears to say we should.
(Remember the entire bible is a parable)
What Ray states makes perfect sense, the task was given to the apostles to sow the seed of the (type/shadow) Kingdom. This was given to those flesh and blood apostles.
Once the church(es) is/are established and they beget more offspring (denominations) establishing even more and more doctrines, all the confusion the churches promote surpasses even the language issues experienced by the builders of the Tower of Babylon. (another parable you think?)
The corruption of the churches "waxes worse and worse" but a remnant of believers are called out, we have scriptural witnesses to substantiate this, are there any (scriptures) commanding a return to Babylon?
For any reason?
I am not aware of any yet if there are I am anxious to meditate on them and recalibrate my present understanding in view of a new Light, every little bit I am blessed to learn always reveals how much more I have to learn, understand and experience.
Back to the topic at hand;
Is this (Mat 28:19) yet another parable? Might we lose the meaning taking it only literally rather than literally to the flesh and blood apostles of Jesus's time as well as a prophecy of the Lord's command to His elect (after the change) to TRULY convert the nations!
I believe this was fulfilled in the flesh, but the better fulfillment will be in the ages to come!
Peace,
Joe
aqrinc:
Here are two translations that show what that command really meant, to make disciples in each of the nations; not to convert all the nations.
Words in brackets are mine.
Mat 28: 19
(RV) Go ye therefore, and make disciples of (from) all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:
(WNT) Go therefore and make disciples of (from) all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
george. :)
newoldstock:
apostles of Jesus' time. It makes good spiritual sense. I do have a bit of a problem calling all scripture parable and none literal, but will read your whole post thread on that tonight. I have an open mind and heart to anything that is spiritual and does not set off my discernment alarm. I have a fear that it might cause us to throw out any scripture that disagrees with our convictions. Which ones do we throw out and which ones do we keep? I know a lot of folks that would like to think that the scriptures concerning too much wine and intoxication are parables and not literal so that they could tear them out and throw them away. I do think that your thoughts on instruction to the apostles is probably right on. Thank you very much for your time and kindness for framing your answers. Thank you all for your consideration. I need to read all on Ray's site asap. God Bless, newoldstock.
aqrinc:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 28, 2009, 06:29:57 PM ---I understand the question about why we are not commissioned to "spread the Word" when Matt 28:19 appears to say we should.
(Remember the entire bible is a parable)
What Ray states makes perfect sense, the task was given to the apostles to sow the seed of the (type/shadow) Kingdom. This was given to those flesh and blood apostles.
Once the church(es) is/are established and they beget more offspring (denominations) establishing even more and more doctrines, all the confusion the churches promote surpasses even the language issues experienced by the builders of the Tower of Babylon. (another parable you think?)
The corruption of the churches "waxes worse and worse" but a remnant of believers are called out, we have scriptural witnesses to substantiate this, are there any (scriptures) commanding a return to Babylon?
For any reason?
I am not aware of any yet if there are I am anxious to meditate on them and recalibrate my present understanding in view of a new Light, every little bit I am blessed to learn always reveals how much more I have to learn, understand and experience.
Back to the topic at hand;
Is this (Mat 28:19) yet another parable? Might we lose the meaning taking it only literally rather than literally to the flesh and blood apostles of Jesus's time as well as a prophecy of the Lord's command to His elect (after the change) to TRULY convert the nations!
I believe this was fulfilled in the flesh, but the better fulfillment will be in the ages to come!
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Joe did not anywhere say to throw out anything in Scripture. The statement that:
(Remember the entire bible is a parable) is true, but not literally only a parable. All the Words in Scripture mean things, many things from the same words sometimes. Literal interpretations usually have a higher Spiritual meaning, or rather ever higher Spiritual meanings. There was a literal Ark Of The Covenant with physical Israel; This Represented a Higher Spiritual Ark Of The Covenant.
One of Ray's more memorable quotes for me is:
The words of the bible don't mean what they say; they mean what they mean, try that for a parable.
george. ;D
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