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Author Topic: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?  (Read 13957 times)

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NoviceBeliever

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Re: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2009, 11:11:27 AM »

apostles of Jesus' time. It makes good spiritual sense. I do have a bit of a problem calling all scripture parable and none literal, but will read your whole post thread on that tonight. I have an open mind and heart to anything that is spiritual and does not set off my discernment alarm. I have a fear that it might cause us to throw out any scripture that disagrees with our convictions. Which ones do we throw out and which ones do we keep? I know a lot of folks that would like to think that the scriptures concerning too much wine and intoxication are parables and not literal so that they could tear them out and throw them away. I do think that your thoughts on instruction to the apostles is probably right on. Thank you very much for your time and kindness for framing your answers. Thank you all for your consideration. I need to read all on Ray's site asap. God Bless, newoldstock.

Eric: My reply was in response to the above question of newoldswords. I felt a complete answer was necessary, so as not to present out of context. NB
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 11:21:12 AM by NoviceBeliever »
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daywalker

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just Joe. So I did not mean to say that Joe did say to throw out anything in Scripture. But it does seem to be the general consensus here that parts of those verses do not belong in scripture. Which ones do and which one don't? Who decides and how do they decide? I did do a Google search on Matt 28:19. The Oneness folks say it is a scribe add-on and the Trinitarians say it not (it is in all of my large collection of bible versions with no notes to indicate a problem) and they say it is the best verse in the bible indicating the doctrine of Trinity. Both sides show evidence to prove their point.  I am not trying to argue or debate. I am trying to understand. ???  Everyone places their "spin" on the bible based on what they believe to be true. Only God for sure knows what is true. Once again, I started this thread in Christian love not to be divisive. I will continue to read and study the forum and Ray's site and keep my trap shut until I have a better grasp of Bible Truths after all I have been gone quite a while and need to get back up to speed.  ;D


Hello newoldstock,

Even if Matt 28:19 is an authentic Scripture, it does not prove the theory of a Trinitarian God. The "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit" are each mentioned many times in Scripture, but no where does it say that they are "three persons, yet one God". The Holy Spirit is the "Holy Spirit OF God" [Eph 4:30]. There is only "One God, The Father, Out of Whom all is" [I Cor 8:6]. So, even if Matthew 28:19 is Scripture, it does not prove that the Trinity is Scriptural. Besides, we don't find the word "trinity" anywhere--maybe there's a good reason for that.  :D


- Daywalker.  8)
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Marky Mark

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Re: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2009, 12:22:48 PM »

When reading Scripture in the New Testament and trying to soak in what the Words of Jesus mean to me, on a personal level, it always comes back to this.


John 6; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor.2; 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

Matt.10;20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Like Ray states "you have to pay attention to the words".Now I know none of us were there when the original manuscript was first put into a format that was to live down through the ages,none of us. But, knowing of what the Spirit of God is and what His ultimate plan is for humanity,well,to think that Christ's words are anything else but of the Spirit would, on my part, be of a huge mistake in my understanding of why i am here in the first place.It is not about the flesh but it is all about the Spirit.That in and of itself is the reason that any of us are even here, its about Spirit, not flesh.

 I cannot say for sure that Mat.28,19 was in the original manuscript or not but the way the wording of that verse is used certainly speaks of a trinitarian doctrine of man and does not speak to me in the Word of Spirit and Truth. Like Ray states if it comes from the church [babylon] you can rest assured that it is all about the literal and of the physical flesh.  In my opinion, this one stinks of rotten trinity fish.

[Jesus speaking to His disciples] 16 "And I shall be asking the Father, and He will be giving you another consoler, that it, indeed, may be with you for the eon --
17 the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you.


23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.
 (John 14:16-17, 23) CLV
 



Peace...Mark
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Linny

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Re: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2009, 02:52:27 PM »

Just to add to what Daywalker said (which I totally agree with), God has finally gotten through to me after many years that when we come across a church doctrine, we should be able to find a clear Scripture for it and if we cannot, then perhaps we should reconsider whether or not it is Scriptural.
For example, if I tell you that God loves us, I can find you any number of Scriptures to back that up. Like: Rom 8:38-9  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Look at all the Scriptures that tell us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world or that He died for all.

But when I realized that so many things I was taught as doctrine DO NOT have a clear Scripture to back them up, I have to search the Scriptures for myself.
The concepts of trinity, rapture, hell as defined as a literal place of torture for those who do not accept Christ as their Savior BEFORE they draw their last breath. None of these are in there and have been explained by men who twist and turn God's Word and "explain" it to us from a pulpit.

What has happened is that the church (God's definition, not a building full of people) has not done what this Scripture told us to do...
Act 17:11  These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

I say this as a recovering sheep and Kool-Aid drinker myself... ::) ;)
Blessings, Lin
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daywalker

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Re: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2009, 03:26:25 PM »

Just to add to what Daywalker said (which I totally agree with), God has finally gotten through to me after many years that when we come across a church doctrine, we should be able to find a clear Scripture for it and if we cannot, then perhaps we should reconsider whether or not it is Scriptural.
For example, if I tell you that God loves us, I can find you any number of Scriptures to back that up. Like: Rom 8:38-9  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Look at all the Scriptures that tell us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world or that He died for all.

But when I realized that so many things I was taught as doctrine DO NOT have a clear Scripture to back them up, I have to search the Scriptures for myself.
The concepts of trinity, rapture, hell as defined as a literal place of torture for those who do not accept Christ as their Savior BEFORE they draw their last breath. None of these are in there and have been explained by men who twist and turn God's Word and "explain" it to us from a pulpit.

What has happened is that the church (God's definition, not a building full of people) has not done what this Scripture told us to do...
Act 17:11  These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

I say this as a recovering sheep and Kool-Aid drinker myself... ::) ;)
Blessings, Lin


Wonderful verse. Lin!! This fits perfectly with II Timothy 2:15:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Great post, thanks!  :)
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emkayfey

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Re: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2009, 07:17:42 PM »

I know that Rev. tells us to come out of Babylon, but can't we come out spiritually without coming out physically? Would God perhaps want us to remain in Babylon physically in order to witness and become missionairies to the Christian lost? Is part of our goal as the elect to witness to the deceived in Church? To be where the lost abide, should be the best way to witness to the lost as in the example of Jesus. Or are the elect not called to witness to the lost as Jesus himself did? I am still confused on this. Please help. God Bless, newoldstock.


I quite understand (Do I?) and appreciate the point newoldstock was making, it is simply a big shift to come out of her (mystery Babylon) afterall, that's all we've known, there are lovely and friendly people there too, we also fear being termed heretic (As I have).
I tried to practice what newoldstock suggested as a Pastor, I was teaching what I learnt on this forum in the church; I realised that many simply have itchy hears and are not ready to search the scriptures but just awe and flinch at what one says...also because I know this was against the head office's 'central doctrine'. I let go eventually by writing to the General office about what I now believe, that was the end of the matter.

The fact is you cannot be in the current christian church and teach what you learn from here, you'll be excommunicated. God be with you.
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newoldstock

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am still in the church and heavily involved in teaching and other ministries. Going "cold turkey" is not easy, especially when your family is also in membership and heavily involved. Thank you everyone for your answers and understanding.
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mharrell08

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Thank you emkayfey, I have a feeling that most here understand my situation. I  am still in the church and heavily involved in teaching and other ministries. Going "cold turkey" is not easy, especially when your family is also in membership and heavily involved. Thank you everyone for your answers and understanding.

Rev 2:5-7  Remember, then, whence you have fallen, and repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I [Jesus] am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting. But this you have, that you are hating the acts of the Nicolaitans, which I, also, am hating. "Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias [Gk. churches]. "To the one who is conquering, to him will I be granting to be eating of the log of life which is in the center of the paradise of God." [CLV]

Newoldstock,

Don't feel pressure to quit 'cold turkey'...you won't be able to truly repent and START to come out of Babylon until the Lord moves you to do so.

Remember, the Lord says 'who is conquering'...it's a continuing process that doesn't end when one simply walks out of the church building. The Lord will move you in His time (and from personal experience, He begins a change IN you to the point you do not even want to THINK about attending service). It will come in due time, according to His will.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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newoldstock

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Re: Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2009, 10:36:54 AM »

Yes, that does help Marques. Thanks to you and to all who have taken of their time and knowledge to answer and comment on this thread. Peace, Jim.
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