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[darren]

I was wondering, on the Nashville conf. (07) audio Ray at one time was speaking about Jesus being glorified in heaven before He became human. Ray asked what did Jesus do in order to be glorified. Ray also said that (and we all,( US) believe and know that God is love) But where did God come up with the concept of evil. and Where did God get the concept of suffering? When before there was even a single creation, there was nothing but God Himself. God being pure love. How and where did He get these thoughts from? How does evil and suffering come into Pure Love's Mind Also, Ray asked How did God get to be what He is (perfection) and Has He always been perfection. Ray added (I have some Ideas on that but I not gonna say right now). (Nashville 07). If I miss stated or miss understood what Ray has said here I am very sorry. I apologize to Ray and the members. It is that I listen to Rays audios every night. (I do mean every night) and these questions Have been on my mind quite a bit.

                                               Darren


PS these are not direct quotes from Ray.
PS These are not direct quotes from Ray

[daywalker]

Hello Darren,

Isaiah 55:8 For, my thoughts, are not, your thoughts, Nor, your ways, my ways,—Declareth Yahweh.

9 For, higher, are the heavens than the earth,—So, higher, are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For, as the rain and the snow descend from the heavens. And thither, do not return, Except they have watered the earth. And caused it to bring forth and bud,—And given seed to the sower, and bread to the eater,

11 So, shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, It shall not return unto me void,—But shall accomplish that which I please, And shall prosper in that whereunto I have sent it.



Job 11:7 The hidden depth of GOD canst thou discover? Or, unto the furthest limit of the Almighty, canst thou attain?

8 The heights of the heavens, what canst thou do? Depths deeper than hades, what canst thou know?



Psalm 139:5 Behind and before, hast thou shut me in, and hast laid upon me thy hand:—

6 Knowledge, too wonderful, for me! high, I cannot attain to it!

7 Whither can I go from thy spirit? or whither, from thy face, can I flee?

8 If I ascend the heavens, there, thou art! If I spread out hades as my couch, behold thee!


[Verses taken from Rotherham's Emphasized Bible]


Sorry, Darren, I don't believe I have all the answers for you either, as I, like you, still wonder and marvel over the same things. There is so much we don't yet understand. God graciously reveals some of His Mysteries to those whom He chooses; but I suspect the real mysteries, the "DEEP things of God", will not be unveiled until the next "eon and further".


God Bless you on your journey, from brother to brother,

- Daywalker. 

[darren]

Daywalker, I know there are things I  will never understand about God's deep mystries. I believe God will reveal His mystries as He sees fit. If one thinks about it, we have been shown and now know more than we did before we came here. Ray said he has some ideas on this subject in Nashville (07) but wasn't ready to share it yet. I believe, Ray was or is waiting for God to show him more on the subject before he reveals it to us. I think this would be a great topic for the next conf. (IMO).


                                               Darren 

[bunnylife]

Did the Father Love always have the knowledge of evil or did it come into existence when He gave birth to wisdom which I think is Jesus Christ - the wisdom of God in Proverbs 8:22-30. I know Ray talked about how the Father travailing in pain to give birth. He knew suffering because as women know how much pain it causes to give birth. Did the Father know about suffering before the birth? He experience suffering through the birth. We know the God created evil and that God doesn't create anything from nothing but everything from Himself. We know the Love is patient. The Father does not get everything He wants right away. He is patiently waiting for the sons and daughters of God to be manifested. He sacrifice His Son to have many sons. That sacrifice had to cause the Father suffering just as His son suffered here on earth. Does it not say that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Love is not comprehended by our carnal minds. Only as the spirit of God works in us to transform us into the image of Love do we start to understand what Love (Father) is.

I don't know the answer either but I am glad that I know where evil does come from. The church told me they didn't know and it was outside of God?? That never made any sense to me. I am so glad to know the Truth. And that is God is Love and Love never fails.

In His Joy,
Bunni

[Marky Mark]

Bunni,
   
  Thank you for the thoughtful and loving words.


Peace...Mark

[gmik]

What an interesting topic.

  I was at that conference and about fell out of my chair when Ray was discussing this.  Wow!! God actually "birthed" wisdom.

  I always wondered about the "Lamb, slain before the foundation of the world"!  The Lord will have Ray reveal when it is God's time not mine!

 

[darren]

Yes bunny, that's the question. Before God created the universe, before there was a heaven and earth. God being pure love, where did the thought of evil come from? You said God doesn't create anything from nothing but everything from Himself. Makes me think about that word (everything) which is why I brought up the subject. As far as I know (and that ain't much) God can not look upon evil. He does not do evil. We know on one hand that all that is good comes from God. What about the other hand?? (I am not saying that bad things come from God) I just want to make that clear. God birth wisdom and all came out of God. It is the (all) part that I am seeking ansewers too. I probable never know. Like gmik said, when it is time God will reveal the ansewers to our questions. Like I said I was just listening to the 07 Nashville audios and that part just stuck in my mind. The more I listen to the audios the more I hear.  Ray always stress,  you got to believe in what the scriptures say and we must listen to the words. I know before I started at BT and listening to Ray's teachings I use to read a scripture a get the jest of it and that was it. Now I read the words. (instead of glancing over them).

                                                     Darren

[daywalker]

As far as I know (and that ain't much) God can not look upon evil. He does not do evil. We know on one hand that all that is good comes from God. What about the other hand??
                                                     Darren

God doesn't do evil?


Job 2:10 Yet he said to her, Like the speech of some decadent woman are you speaking. Indeed should we receive good from the One, GOD, and should we not receive evil? In all this, Job did not sin with his lips.

Lamentations 3:38 Do not both the evil and the good come forth from the mouth of the Supreme?

Amos 3:6 Would a trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not tremble? Would there come to be evil in a city, and Yahweh not have done it?

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh GOD, and there is none else."
7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh GOD, made all of these things."

Ecclesiastes 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil GOD has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


Of course God does evil. God 'created' evil, and God 'uses' evil. Ray goes into great detail on this both in the LOF articles and in several emails. The problem with understanding EVIL is that [and thanks to Christendom and all religions for doing this...] it has become synonymous with SIN in human wisdom. But they are NOT the same. All 'sin' is evil, but 'evil' isn't necessarily 'sin'.

When God 'kills' someone, is it 'evil'? Why, YES, it is. Killing someone is an 'evil' act, not good. But is it 'sin'? Of course not. A 'sin' is a mistake; and God doesn't make mistakes.


ALL is of God. Not just the 'good'. However, coming to fully understand this is very difficult for us humans to do.


Peace, Out

Daywalker 

[darren]

Yes daywalker, I agree with everything you said. I'm not debating if God uses evil for His purpose. I just wondered where and how He came abut the concept of evil?

                                           Darren

                                                   

[NoviceBeliever]

I was listening to Ray's audio "How Hard is Getting Saved" just this morning and was contemplating this very topic regarding much of what he was speaking to regarding evil.  

My simple understanding of GOD creating evil is that without "Evil" we would not recognize the "Good" that GOD is teaching us about so that we can become like him.  So therefore, there couldn't be one without the other. Ray likens it (paraphase) to how would you know if you where warm, if you didn't know what cold felt like.  

Darren, if you haven't read this one yet, there is much in there about the parables speaking to just this issue.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

NB

[bunnylife]

As far as I know (and that ain't much) God can not look upon evil. He does not do evil.

Darren as I started this others have already posted.

Deu 4:25  When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evilH7451 in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

Now for the church to say God can’t look on evil, I don’t know how many verses (53?) there are in the Old Testament that states in the sight of the LORD they did evil.

There are 85 verses with God evil and (except for one?) the evil mentioned with the word God was râ‛âh - from knowledge of good and evil. It is the evil He is going to bring upon them or evil they are doing. There are other variations of the word evil that men do. 201 verses with Lord or LORD evil the most with râ‛âh

I've heard the Babylon church that says God can’t look upon sin. (Mankind doing evil is sin). I don’t see a scripture that says that. I do know only the pure in heart can see God. The carnal mind can never see or understand God. That God is with the sinner and righteous in sheol/hades (the unseen). I think this is just another way the Babylon church has to distance God from evil that they say He never created and a way for the sinners that don’t know Jesus Christ to go to their fable hell.

2Ti 3:13  But evil4190 men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

G4190
πονηρός
ponēros
pon-ay-ros'
From a derivative of G4192; hurtful, that is, evil (properly in effect or influence, and thus differing from G2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from G4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively calamitous; also (passively) ill, that is, diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, that is, derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners: - bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked (-ness). See also G4191.


569 verses on evil and 655 on good. Father God knew we had to know evil to know what is good. Evil and good are the opposites but they are from one fruit. Without evil and satan pushing my buttons (caused by God) I would not recognize the beast. I edited out some what I have stated earlier. Everything is of Him for His glory!

In His Joy,
Bunni

[Dave in Tenn]

From the Repentance transcript:

" ...Aha, I think I have God figured out now.   When the sun is up, it’s not damp, it’s not wet, it’s not cold, it’s not dark.  When the sun goes down it’s cold, damp and dark.  Therefore the sun is the cause of dampness, cold and darkness.  How do you like that?  Cause when the sun’s up you don’t have those things, and when the sun goes down you have them.  Therefore this darkness is caused by the sun."

No, that’s wrong.  That’s the way some people understand theology.
 
It’s 'when the sun is gone the automatic results is, it’s dark, cold and damp'.  The sun didn’t cause it.  It’s when the sun comes up the sun takes it away.  It’s not when the sun goes down it causes it to come.  It always been there, it’s the sun that takes it away, it’s not the sun causes it to come, and that’s the way God is.

When God removes His beams of light from mankind they become cold and damp and dark.  Is that hard to understand?  Automatically.   God does not have to supernaturally make it dark on one side of the earth when the sun is on the other side.  God doesn’t have to do that it’s automatic, and God doesn’t have to force anybody to sin, it’s automatic.

Yes God brings about the circumstances, “Wherefore God gave them up…”  yes He did,  He’s behind it.  But He did it through the lusts of their own hearts.  He didn’t force anybody to do anything.

Darren, maybe that's a nudge in the right direction.

[mharrell08]

Whenever the Father decided He wanted children or family, He birthed Wisdom. To have His children He travailed came up with the plan - Wisdom of God (Jesus Christ?) I imagine that the Father had already thought this through gave birthed to the idea (Son) and then implemented it. This involved His Son with the creation of universe and then mankind. The tree of the knowledge of good

Bunni,

Please don't take this as an attack, but this is not correct. Where exactly did you come to this understanding of the Father birthing Jesus as Wisdom?

The Father did not 'involve' Jesus with the creation of the universe, Jesus IS the creator of the universe and all therein. Jesus, who is GOD, created all there is in wisdom.

Jesus is the express image of The Father [2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15] in all attributes including wisdom...not as simply 'the wisdom of God'.

Jesus was dead from the sacrifice on the cross...would that mean that The Father's wisdom was dead as well?


Please take no offense but these attempts at keeping the discussions centered on the scriptures and Ray's teachings are for everyone's benefit, especially those who may not be as spiritually mature as others.


Thanks,

Marques

[bunnylife]

Marques,

You are right. I wrote this while going through side effects from my injection and I should have not been posting. I many times come up with the wrong word and can not recognize it. I know the Jesus is the Creator of everything.

I didn't mean to teach anything and ask of all of you your forgiveness. I have edited it out.

In His Love,
Bunni

[mharrell08]

Marques,

You are right. I wrote this while going through side effects from my injection and I should have not been posting. I many times come up with the wrong word and can not recognize it. I know the Jesus is the Creator of everything.

I didn't mean to teach anything and ask of all of you your forgiveness. I have edited it out.

In His Love,
Bunni

No problem Bunni...all glory to God 



Marques

[aqrinc]

Hi Bunni, Marques,

I struggled with that very question for months since the conference, and only now with this very discussion see the light. Thanks to GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ; both of you, and other contributers to this thread, i see the light on this subject.

Sorry for not being more available, currently practicing mountain moving and climbing; very daunting, but so Faith Building.

george.