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Author Topic: "Kingdom of the heavens"  (Read 5252 times)

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Amrhrasach

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"Kingdom of the heavens"
« on: August 05, 2009, 12:21:02 PM »

"Dear Ray,
            I decided to write again.  Still lots of questions, but I have been reading the LOF series.  I surfed the net tonight for the first time in months to read about hell, and it just makes me angry.  All of it.  I am frustrated thanks to your site.:-)  I am understanding so much, but not everything-well not alot to be honest.  I am so hungry to read everything but have to take it all in stride.  My question for you has to do with the kingdom of Heaven.  Is this only speaking of the kingdom in which the elect will rule with Christ, or that as well as where we all will be after everything is restored.
         
        Are those who follow Him here and now already in that Kingdom, spiritually speaking?  I realize this is a broad subject-maybe you have a particular paper on this subject that you can point me to.  Whatever help is appreciated.  I continue to search to understand.  To "see" and "hear".  I do not want to be lead astray, lied to, decieved.  I want to know and follow the truth.  It's hard for me to trust completely in anything right now.  It's like I am being stripped of everything I thought was the truth at one point.  I am in a quandry-not fun.  I ask and pray for peace-haven't gotten it yet.  I feel farther away from God than I have ever felt, at the same time I want so much to feel close to Him.  My heart aches as I continue to read and pray for peace in all of this. 
         
        Thank you for your time. 
        Seeking Christ,
        Beth   
         

        Dear Beth:
        The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God'd domain, where He resides.  To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.  Too big a subject for an email.
        God be with you,
        Ray"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html




Would anyone have additional insight into the underlined portion?...., or perhaps point to another email/document that Ray has written more extensively on the matter?

Gary

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mharrell08

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 12:36:56 PM »

Excerpt from 'How Hard is Getting Saved' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html):

Jesus Christ never converted a person in His whole ministry.  It’s just amazing.  If you said that in a church they’d be throwing rotten tomatoes at you.  But in His whole ministry Jesus Christ never converted one person! Not one!

The 11 second sinner’s prayer… they have not a clue what they are talking about!!

When came around Pentecost time though, a whole bunch of them were converted, about 120 of them.  But Christ was leading them up to that.  And He’s probably leading some of us up to that.

All these things take a lifetime.  We’re going to live "the seals."  A third part of the man died... that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die, a third part of the carnality.  God works in increments, He wipes out some of the trees and then He burns some of the grass… what is the trees and the grass?  These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues, they are all things that must happen in our lives.

You say, 'Well I don’t remember any trees being burned down.'  First of all, you won’t even know some of it is happening until it’s over.  Some of you will remember, I have this in my Lake of Fire Series: “And I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day and I heard a voice BEHIND me as the voice of a trumpet and I turned to see the voice that spoke to me and being turned I saw…”  You won’t see some of these things until they are behind you.  You’re going to have to look behind you to see where you came from, to see where God has been taking you.  Some of us wouldn’t want to live tomorrow if we knew what was coming, you know.  Be thankful that you don’t know everything that’s coming.  Be thankful that you only have to take one day at a time.  You don’t want to know what every day has to hold.  Take it one day at a time as God presents it to you.

And there will come a time, when you can look behind you, as I can, and see where God’s been taking you all these years.  You’ll see it plain as day. I could sit here for hours and tell you all about it.  I can tell you about trees and grass and mountains coming down, I know what it means.  It’s all one, all this stuff.  Are you getting it?  It’s all one thing.  Whether you believe on Christ or enter the door of Christ or call upon the name of Christ or accept His grace through the faith of Christ, it’s all one thing.  It’s all Christ coming to you, living His life in you!

You notice how many things in Revelation are described as “for a times, time and half a time” - “for a year, years, and half a year” - “for a season, seasons, and half a season” - “for 42 months” - "for 1260 days."  How much is 3½ years, 3½ seasons, 1260 days and 42 months?  How much is that?  It’s all the same!  It’s a symbol of something spiritual.  I think I can prove, although it’s not as easy as you might think, that Christ’s ministry lasted 3½ years.  You know how long that is?  42 months - 1260 days...  Why do we have these, why are they in there?  Why is that over and over in there?  Because Christ lived in the flesh in his ministry for 1260 days, 42 months, 3½ years.  He’s going to live that ministry in us!

And that’s why we live these things that take 42 months, 1260 days and 3½ years. And that 3½ years will be His ministry.  Maybe it will take 4½ years to live His ministry in us, maybe it will take 40½ years… it’s a symbol, however long it takes.  And it’s going to go through this generation of believers and then this one, then this one and on and on because Jesus Christ is, was and will be.  He’s not in the past and coming again in the future, He’s here now!  And He was here before and He’ll be there in the future, He is, was and will be!



This is just referring to the fact that God works in you, in increments...never more than you can bear.

1 Cor 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

2 Cor 4:10-11  Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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Astrapho

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 12:56:50 PM »

Quote
All these things take a lifetime.  We’re going to live "the seals."  A third part of the man died... that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die, a third part of the carnality.  God works in increments, He wipes out some of the trees and then He burns some of the grass… what is the trees and the grass?  These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues, they are all things that must happen in our lives.

Quote
And there will come a time, when you can look behind you, as I can, and see where God’s been taking you all these years.

Wow... Wow! I see teh lighttt. At least, I think I do.

Thanks for the great post, Marques.
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Amrhrasach

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 02:55:56 PM »

Thank you, Marques.

Allow me to re-phrase.

It appears based on Ray’s statement (and your posting) that we live “spiritually” in two “zones” if you will, ie: carnal and the kingdom of heaven.  That’s what it appears to me, albeit, that assessment may not be correct.

Now, to review the contents of your post it appears that would be a correct assessment, as in, “increments”, “1/3”, “burned out”, “looking back”. Still carnal but moving toward full spirituality as God sees fit.

So we have only a “portion” of God’s spirit at any one time...but not complete until the resurrection?  In other words, we’re never truly ever spiritually “converted” while we remain on this earth?  And Romans 8:11 would be a spiritual match?


“Rom 8:11  and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.”

Key word:  “dying” (not dead)

Gary
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Astrapho

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 03:08:40 PM »

-Gets OHHHH feeling-
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bluzman

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 03:15:52 PM »

Marques,
Thank you for your post. Before crash landing on Bible Truths, I never could understand or feel any of these things.
All that I could feel was a sense if absolute loneliness and betrayal. About the only thing that I don't feel guilty about is not
blaming God for any of my circumstances. At least I hope not. Many years ago I asked for knowledge and understanding.
Looking back over my life, I can now see how a little of both were given to me. Had I not gone through these things, I doubt very much  I would be here today typing this note. Had I known then what that path held for me I would not have had the strength or the stomach
to go through all of past events. There is today and then tomorrow, hopefully. Each and every one of these experiences had their part to play in bringing or dragging me here. When Armstrong was exposed for what he wasn't, a modern day "apostle", I lost all faith and hope of ever seeing or hearing the Truth. I realize now that these people do, in the heavens of men's minds, place themselves between  
Father and Son, motivated by power and greed. I see H. W. Armstrong as a destroyer of worlds, at least mine anyway. I can't lay all the blame on him or others like him as I played a good part myself in all of this. Now my eyes and ears are tuned a lot more to what I have experienced than to these daily occurrences. Some are able to understand these things sooner, and I say good for them. I now do understand a little about not being put through more than I can bear.
Peace, Bluzman
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Kat

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 04:00:04 PM »


At the time that Jesus Christ was on earth He repeatedly said "the kingdom of God/heaven is at hand." 

Mark 1:14  Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
v. 15  and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent! For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

It was at hand because Christ was soon to be offered and would return to the Father and send the Holy Spirit.  Look at all of these Scriptures that states the Father and Jesus Christ/ Helper/Comforter/Morning Star will come to indwell the Elect in their lifetime on earth.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him."
John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper (KJV Comforter), that He may abide with you forever--
v. 17  the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
v. 18  I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

2Pe 1:19  And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

This verse in Revelation tell us who "the Morning Star" is.

Rev 22:16  "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Luke 17:20  "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
v. 21 nor will they say, "See here!' or "See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v. 13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

1John 5:1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving Him also who is begotten by Him. (CLV)


The parable of the wheat and the tares also speaks about the kingdom of heaven being like the field with the wheat with the tares.  The wheat is the Elect that are living in this age.

Mat 13:24  Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
v. 25  but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
v. 26  But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
v. 27  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
v. 28  He said to them, "An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, "Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
Mat 13:29  But he said, "No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
v. 30  Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

But as Ray stated "To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom."  This is the begettal that the Elect receive in this lifetime, the Spirit is working inside, but it's a process.  Those that are destined to be the elect (and none of us know for sure who that is) will have the Holy Spirit deposited when God calls you to repentance and it will remain for the rest of that person life and it will grow as the process continues.  Like what Ray said in the excerpt that Marques provided;

Quote
God works in increments, He wipes out some of the trees and then He burns some of the grass… what is the trees and the grass?  These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues, they are all things that must happen in our lives.

It's like the Spirit is now working inside of the Elect preparing them and getting them ready for the first resurrection, but it is only a begettal now, a promise until Christ returns.  At the first resurrection they will receive the full reward and fully enter the kingdom.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Heb 10:35  Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
v. 36  For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
v. 37  "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

2Ti 4:7  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
v. 8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
   
Just wanted to bring the Scriptures that I think would help in this discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Amrhrasach

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 05:28:29 PM »

Thank you.

Gary
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Marky Mark

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 06:04:45 PM »

Thank you, Marques.

Allow me to re-phrase.

It appears based on Ray’s statement (and your posting) that we live “spiritually” in two “zones” if you will, ie: carnal and the kingdom of heaven.  That’s what it appears to me, albeit, that assessment may not be correct.

Now, to review the contents of your post it appears that would be a correct assessment, as in, “increments”, “1/3”, “burned out”, “looking back”. Still carnal but moving toward full spirituality as God sees fit.

Quote
So we have only a “portion” of God’s spirit at any one time...but not complete until the resurrection?  In other words, we’re never truly ever spiritually “converted” while we remain on this earth?  
And Romans 8:11 would be a spiritual match?[/color]

“Rom 8:11  and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.”

Key word:  “dying” (not dead)

Gary


Gary,hope this helps some.


This would be a Spiritual conversion.

2Cor.  5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


This would be being Spirit.
John3
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”





Email to Ray...
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3888.0.html

Hello Mr. Smith,
        
        Are we "born again" while we still live in our sinful flesh, or does this take place after the resurrection ? Thanks for your time.
        
        Willie
        

        Dear Willie:
        I discuss this in greater detail in one of my Bible Studies posted on our Forum. There is but one word in the Greek manuscripts to represent "begotten," and "born."  Numerous Scriptures tell us that we are given in this life, only the ernest or downpayment of God's Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). Furthermore, Jesus told Necodemus that when one IS ACTUALLY "born again" he is like the wind (John 3:3-8). Christians are not powerful and invisible as the wind is, in this life. From these two truths, we can establish that we are "begotten" of God's Spirit in this life, but we will not be "BORN of God's Spirit" until the resurrection to immortality (I Cor. 15:42-54).
        God be with you,
        Ray





Peace...Mark
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Amrhrasach

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 06:28:10 PM »

It does.   Thank you Mark.

Gary
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aqrinc

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 10:59:23 PM »

Hi Gary, Astrapho, bluzman, Jacobs Ladder,

YES, remember this day; when you feel challenged next time. Growth in The Spirit comes in increments because it is the most difficult thing we endure in this life; our old man does not want to die. He (old man) is going to come back over and over, so remember this day when the ride gets bumpy; it will.

When possible listen to the audio of this topic a few hundred times, amazing what you can learn.

Download links below.

Gospel Of The Kingdom part one: http://bible-truths.com/audio/M05%20GospelOfTheKingdom_p1.mp3
Gospel Of The Kingdom part two: http://bible-truths.com/audio/M05%20GospelOfTheKingdom_p2.mp3


Excerpt from transcript:  What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom?  

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg49583.html#msg49583
                                  
The Image Of God

He is creating, not created - finished - done.
If God created (ed - past tense) man in His image, why oh why did he sin?  Think about it, are we saying that the image of God is a sinning image?  How could the very image of God, sin?  Well that’s what they say, they say he (Adam) was perfect.


One day Copeland said, Adam was so glorified, so majestic, so spiritual that you couldn’t see his body.  That he glowed like a white star.  He was so glorious you couldn’t even see his body, that’s how glorious he was before he sinned.  Well why did he sin?  How could anything so God-like sin?  Because he wasn’t God-like at all!  He was as carnal as any slob who has ever drawn breath.  That’s why he sinned.  

So this is the plan of God, He is making children in His very own image.  We are going to be like God. We are going to be God’s children.  You know what children are like.  So we’ll be like God, if we’re going to be the children of God.  We’re going to be like Christ.  Christ is called God and we are going to be brothers and sisters.  We’re going to be sons of God.

george. ;D

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 11:21:50 PM by aqr »
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bluzman

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 11:43:28 PM »

Hello George, I will, and your advice is always welcome.
After I read your post, this thought came to mind.
It seems Goliath falls and gets right back up and seems
to be undefeatable.
Peace and thank you,
Bluzman
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Terry

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  • Posts: 195
Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2009, 11:29:54 AM »

Excerpt from 'How Hard is Getting Saved' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html):
Thanks Marques for your reply i have read this before but did not see the things that i see now, i know Revelations is symbolic but i couldn't get pass all the things that will happen in the tribulation i've always had some fear of that time hoping i would not be alive when it happens but after reading your reply that fear is now gone i can now  see that i'm going through these things now, for the last seven years of illness i have been in a place i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, at 56 i have spent everything i have saved,lost my truck my camper my health and don't know how we will keep our house,the first 4 or 5 years i couldn't understand why i was going through these trails but now i have joy knowing my Lord needed me to go through these things that i might learn to lean on him and trust him. Since some of the worldly things that are now gone i have become closer to my Lord i have peace now and great Joy and as for my house i believe my Lord will work that out also i have no fear of that any more, i will let everyone know how our Lord works this out as it happens, isn't it amazing how we can have such joy with all the trails that we all face in this walk with our Lord

Much Peace
Terry
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Terry

bluzman

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2009, 12:08:25 PM »

Hi Jacob,
I understand how you feel. Used to read a lot of novels before I found BibleTruths.
Some produced in a series, like Stephen King's stuff,and couldn't wait for the next one.
Since my circumstances are ever changing, when I do a reread on one of Ray's papers, I seem to be viewing his writings
from a new and informative perspective. I just could hardly wait for anything from the last conference.
Peace brother, Bluzman
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cjwood

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Re: "Kingdom of the heavens"
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 06:32:28 PM »

yes jacob, i understand your feeling about coming to the end of any of ray's enlightened teachings. just like finishing a very good book and you feel the little let down of "it's over, i finished the book". but, with ray's awesome writings we can reread them and become joyous again and again as we read the evidence of the Spirit working through ray to bring forth the teachings of His Truths. if we reread any other writings (other than the Scriptures), we can often be let down because we already know the end of the story, but with ray's teachings, the story just builds and builds, enlarging our spiritual understanding of the most awesome Story every written.

claudia
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 04:00:26 AM by cjwood »
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