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Author Topic: His return? Some questions.  (Read 22898 times)

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hillsbororiver

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2006, 06:02:22 PM »

johann writes;
 
[Origen 11 has expressed my sentiments too. Why is everyone suddenly so besotted with spritualizing everything in the fear of believing just a little something that might just be meant literally? What? Is nothing literal in the Scriptures anymore according to some of you??]
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Joe writes;

I can see your point, there does seem to be a few that believe the physical has no significance, but "faith without works (2041)" is what?

"Works" defined in the original Greek;

G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

"Dead" (3498);

G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.


When you look at the fruits of the spirit you can see that they must be manifested externally (physically) as well as inwardly (spiritual) for them to be genuine.

It is one thing to sit at a keyboard and proclaim our love for mankind and quite another to get off of our backsides and actually do something for someone with no expectation of a returned favor or even gratitude.

I hope I am not coming across as harsh or judgemental because I assure you that is not my intention, I am questioning myself as much or more than anyone else.

Again, there is alot to potentially cover here, all comments are welcome and appreciated.

Peace,

Joe
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orion77

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2006, 06:10:17 PM »

Quote from: Origen II
The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.



I do not wish to bring any heresy into this forum.  The ressurrection is the crux of our belief.  I know when this body dies, it will return to the dust from whence it came and the spirit will return to God.


(1Co 15:12)  But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is not a resurrection of the dead?

(1Co 15:13)  But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.

(1Co 15:14)  But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless.

(1Co 15:15)  And also we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed as to God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if the dead ones are not raised.

(1Co 15:16)  For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised.

(1Co 15:17)  But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is foolish; you are still in your sins.

(1Co 15:18)  And then those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.

(1Co 15:19)  If we only have hope in Christ in this life, we are of all men most miserable.

(1Co 15:20)  But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.

(1Co 15:21)  For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;

(1Co 15:22)  for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

(1Co 15:23)  But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.

(1Co 15:24)  Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

(1Co 15:25)  For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1

(1Co 15:26)  the last hostile thing made to cease is death.

(1Co 15:27)  For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6

(1Co 15:28)  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.

(1Co 15:29)  Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?

(1Co 15:30)  Why are we also in danger every hour?

(1Co 15:31)  Day by day I die, by your boasting, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(1Co 15:32)  If according to man I fought with beasts in Ephesus, what is the profit to me if the dead are not raised? ("Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.") Isa. 22:13

(1Co 15:33)  Do not be led astray; bad companionships ruin good habits.

(1Co 15:34)  Be righteously awake, and do not sin; for some have ignorance of God. I speak to your shame.

(1Co 15:35)  But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?

(1Co 15:36)  Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

(1Co 15:37)  And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain, (it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest),

(1Co 15:38)  and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body.

(1Co 15:39)  Not every flesh is the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.

(1Co 15:40)  And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;

(1Co 15:41)  one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

(1Co 15:42)  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

(1Co 15:43)  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

(1Co 15:44)  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

(1Co 15:45)  So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7

(1Co 15:46)  But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

(1Co 15:47)  The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7

(1Co 15:48)  Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.

(1Co 15:49)  And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

(1Co 15:50)  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

(1Co 15:51)  Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.

(1Co 15:52)  In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

(1Co 15:53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(1Co 15:54)  But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8

(1Co 15:55)  "O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" Hos. 13:14

(1Co 15:56)  Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law;

(1Co 15:57)  but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

(1Co 15:58)  So that, my beloved brothers, you be firm, immovable, abounding in the work of the Lord always, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.


My question is not concerning the resurrection, but the second coming all of christianity talks about, including the rapture, pretribulatiion, postribulation, literal 7 years and what not that goes along with His second coming.  Same thing they are all looking for some antichrist to come prior to this.  Just seems to be way too much confusion.

Most scriptures I have found do not back up what modern day christianity professes, concerning the second coming, but that He has come and is in us now.  

Maybe I am way off track, but I know of a surety that He has come and is in me now, this I can not deny.

God bless,

Gary
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Origen II

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2006, 06:17:27 PM »

I wasn't speaking towards you specifically, Orion, but in general.

However; as far as I've studied I've always thought that Christs return would in fact initiate the resurrection. So if Christ is here NOW then where's the resurrection?

I though the Holy Spirit was only a DEPOSIT...a SEAL...for the age to come.

EDIT:


I have always looked at it from this perspective. As of right now we are cocooned. Christ is manifested in us, and then when the time comes He will burst from us like a catepillar comes from its covering and then His wings will spread.
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Andy_MI

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2006, 06:34:33 PM »

2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
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orion77

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2006, 06:34:38 PM »

I know it was not meant for me specifically, Origen II.  This subject at hand can go very deep and there are lots of misconceptions that we have been taught our whole lives.

I can only speak for what God has graciously shown me.  The baptism of His Spirit was one of full immersion for me.  Words can not describe it, seems unlawful to talk about it.  When the scriptures speak of Christ in us, believe them, for He literally through the Spirit is.  I have spoke too much of this subject.  Through experience it is best for me, not to speak of such things.  They are too wonderful and true for me to put into words, oftentimes bringing misunderstandings and bitter persecutions from people who perceive I am better than they.  This is far from the truth.

Although, I must admit the carnal side yearns to be able to openly converse in this subject.  Then again, there are some things best kept between ourselves and God.

God bless,

Gary
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orion77

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2006, 06:49:02 PM »

Just for clarity purposes, I do not think the resurrection is past.  It is my hope, a pillar of the faith from God.

God bless,

Gary
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longhorn

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2006, 07:19:26 PM »

In all their 1000's of pages of writings, neither Ray nor Mike can give a simple clear answer, WHY, because they don't have the slightest damn idea.  What they are very clever at doing in their e-mails when such a GENERAL question like this is asked them, is confuse the crap out of all who read it by giving scripture after scripture, after scripture, but yet not answering the question. For two men to claimed to be so spiritually superior to all of mankind, show me then where they give an answer to the question asked on this post, and then explain it in LAYMANS terms, and cut out all this trying to impress people with how many scriptures you can type in ONE post. Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
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Craig

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2006, 07:39:09 PM »

Quote from: longhorn
Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.


Longhorn,

Yes..........Is that simple enough?

 :D
Craig
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Daniel

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2006, 07:44:34 PM »

Quote from: Andy_MI
2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Where did anyone say Jesus was past? :lol:

He bore our sins (in what was) ONCE and for all, and THAT alone is past. He (who IS the Resurrection) is He who was (once for sin) IS and always will be, He never changes. :D

He hath delivered us from so great a death, who doth deliver, and will yet deliver.

Peace

Daniel
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Andy_MI

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2006, 08:01:38 PM »

Quote from: Daniel
Quote from: Andy_MI
2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Where did anyone say Jesus was past? :lol:

He bore our sins (in what was) ONCE and for all, and THAT alone is past. He (who IS the Resurrection) is He who was (once for sin) IS and always will be, He never changes. :D

He hath delivered us from so great a death, who doth deliver, and will yet deliver.

Peace

Daniel


Not sure what you're asking there bro. I see some confusion in lilitalianboy's heart concerning the second advent of Christ and the ressurection of the dead. I'm not directing the scripture quote towards anyone specific. Just showing that the ressuriction hasn't happened yet and awaits the coming of our Lord to sound the trumpet.

Peace,

Andy
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gmik

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his return
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2006, 11:02:05 PM »

Craig, was your answer yes to Lilit...first question?  Is Jesus coming back to earth fleshly???
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lilitalienboi16

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2006, 11:20:17 PM »

Quote from: longhorn
In all their 1000's of pages of writings, neither Ray nor Mike can give a simple clear answer, WHY, because they don't have the slightest damn idea.  What they are very clever at doing in their e-mails when such a GENERAL question like this is asked them, is confuse the crap out of all who read it by giving scripture after scripture, after scripture, but yet not answering the question. For two men to claimed to be so spiritually superior to all of mankind, show me then where they give an answer to the question asked on this post, and then explain it in LAYMANS terms, and cut out all this trying to impress people with how many scriptures you can type in ONE post. Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.


Ouch Longhorn take it easy my friend. No need for such harsh words, they have been granted insight, but like everyone else they don't know it all. I'm not sure if Ray and mike Think of themselves so highly but i did read rays comment to mike about them being the only to mature ones to discern such things, that was alittle out of plac eif you ask me but we all make mistakes. God forgive them, and us, and God will we are not led astray.

This is a very difficult subject, I do not think msyelf the ressurection is passed, or that it won't happen. But like Orien i know Christ in us NOW, so that is my confusion, He is with us now, He has returned yet if He actualy does not return physicaly then i guess the Dead will never hear that trumpet huh? Which i don't think is the case but this is why my question has been brought forth.

I am confused on this point, as much as anyone else i think, God give your flock some insight Lord and let us not be led astray. Amen.

God bless,

Alex
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Daniel

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2006, 11:44:36 PM »

Quote from: Andy_MI
Quote from: Daniel
Quote from: Andy_MI
2Ti 2:17  And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Where did anyone say Jesus was past? :lol:

He bore our sins (in what was) ONCE and for all, and THAT alone is past. He (who IS the Resurrection) is He who was (once for sin) IS and always will be, He never changes. :D

He hath delivered us from so great a death, who doth deliver, and will yet deliver.

Peace

Daniel


Not sure what you're asking there bro. I see some confusion in lilitalianboy's heart concerning the second advent of Christ and the ressurection of the dead. I'm not directing the scripture quote towards anyone specific. Just showing that the ressuriction hasn't happened yet and awaits the coming of our Lord to sound the trumpet.

Peace,

Andy


Sorry Andy, I was trying to find where someone said the Resurrection was past. I couldn't find where Alex had said that.

He just has honest questions, as Craig said, no one has given him a straight answer. I wont either thats why I answered my post the way I did. I think its best taught by God to Alex. God is certainly not deaf to Alex or unable he's just working it through.

But wars will start over the very subject even when you don't see the Resurrection as past. Others get offended.

Best to keep the mystery of the faith to yourself before the Lord with a good conscience.

Peace

Daniel
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Daniel

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2006, 11:54:41 PM »

Quote from: parsonssc
Quote from: longhorn
Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.


Longhorn,

Yes..........Is that simple enough?

 :D
Craig


Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?

How can you both speak that way?

Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?

Daniel
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worm

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2006, 07:03:03 AM »

if we want to know about the second coming of Jesus, we should look at how prophecy pans out...and especially with regards to the Feasts,  Holy Days and Rituals of Israel...

Jesus already fulfilled the Spring Feasts ie Passover & Pentecost
What is still outstanding is the Autumn Feasts...Feast of Trumpets, the Wave Sheaf offering and the Feast of Tabernacles

to explain a bit of the above:
Passover
in the OT Israel slaugtered the Passover lamb and its blood was put on their lintels as protection against the Angel of Death...Jesus fulfilled this feast by becoming the Passover Lamb Himself...His blood delivering us from the Angel of Death

Pentecost
This feasts was celebrated to commemorate the occasion when God came down to His people...they were too scared of Him to receive His fullness, and thus He gave them the Law...a downpayment of greater things to come...Jesus fulfilled this feast when God came to the people again, but this time the 120 in the upper room was not scared and received the Holy Spirit...

also, the Day of Atonement and the Leper cleansing rituals also prophecy on the two works of Christ

take the Leper cleansing ritual as example...
after a leper was healed...he had to take two doves to be offered by the High Priest and present himself
one dove was killed in an earthen vessel under running water, and the second dove was smeared across its back with the blood of the first dove...and set free...after all this happened, the leper was annointed with oil

now...the first dove obviously refers to the first work of Christ (the death work) and the second dove to His second work (the life work)

Scripture also refers to the coming of Jesus again with "His robe dipped in blood"...as it does to Joseph's coat (who is a pattern of Christ)

Scripture speaks of the whole creation groaning for the manifestations of the sons of God and also that at the coming of the Lord (again), the dead overcomers will be raised and the living overcomers will be changed like as in a twink of an eye...this wil be the time when the overcomers will be like Jesus...immortal and full of the Holy Spirit and have the same mind and heart as Christ...
the overcomers will meet Christ "in the air" as to welcome Him back to earth...the 1000 year mellenium will start and the prohecies of Joel, Jeremiah and Ezekiel will be fulfilled as the whole earth will then start knowing the righteosness of God...being taught and revealed by the Christ ruling company

 this I beleive will occur sometime in the future with the Feast of Trumpets ( the 7th trumpet will sound and the dead overcomers will be raised)...as well as during the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles...when the Holy Spirit it its fullness will come upon the overcomers (not just a "downpaymnet" like Paul said happened at Pentecost)

if anyone is more interested and want to know where I learnt this from, PM me :wink:
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hillsbororiver

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2006, 11:58:59 AM »

Quote from: Daniel
Quote from: parsonssc
Quote from: longhorn
Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.


Longhorn,

Yes..........Is that simple enough?

 :D
Craig


Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?

How can you both speak that way?

Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?

Daniel


Hi Daniel,

No need to assume you will be banned for questioning anything, all we ask is that disagreements with articles are backed by scripture and that we remain respectful to all of our Brothers and Sisters as we seek His Truth.

There will never be a time in this age where we all agree on everything, sometimes even when there is agreement conflict arises over use or style of language. People can be offended by a tone or manner they are not familiar with, this happens wherever you have people with different backgrounds conferring together.

Someone from a small town, in the deep south may be offended by the fast talking, finger snapping New Yorker who may not mean any harm or insult and a Librarian may be offended by the "take no prisoners" style of communication a Construction Manager might use.

This is where we can learn patience and understanding, not being quick to judge another person's motivation, seeking clarity before accusing.

Daniel, I hope this clears up what you may of been thinking, I have always found you to be respectful and diligent in looking for His treasure,

Joe
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Craig

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2006, 12:14:24 PM »

Quote from: Daniel
Quote from: parsonssc
Quote from: longhorn
Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.


Longhorn,

Yes..........Is that simple enough?

 :D
Craig


Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?

How can you both speak that way?

Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?

Daniel



I'm sorry Daniel, I wasn't answering Alex, or you, I was replying to Longhorn.  

Did you notice the  :D  :D

I wasn't trying to be arrogant, sorry that you took it that way.

Craig
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mercie

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2006, 12:27:34 PM »

Quote from: Origen II
The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.


Origen,

Im fully aware what B-TS teaches and not wish to cross the path, but to assure its not from the Lack of so called spiritual eyes  in that I do not Understand what is taught.

Some believe they have spiritual Eyes because they SEE the word Hell fire  Not being ET but theres so much More to see than that and for those who as you say spirtualize away the scriptures.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Christ is the Resurrection of LIFE in our Hearts.

Eternal Life is This.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.




1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come,and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds,  nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail  , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and  clouds  just may mean Messengers.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.  

Rain is the message  clouds are those which carry Rain.  yes?


 Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb a@@ speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.  

 2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.  

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

 WITH RESPECT .It just maybe that some here dont have the spiritual eyes they think they Have and jump two quickly in saying the one or two things mentioned on this Thread.

Always two sides to the coin.
Peace.
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hillsbororiver

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2006, 12:37:05 PM »

Quote from: mercie


Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds,  nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail  , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and  clouds  just may mean Messengers.

.


Mercie, where did I say lightning always means lightning or any such thing? I wrote that the clouds in this instance and many others point to the elect, messengers if you will, I invited others to do a word search to verify.

Thanks,

Joe
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mercie

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His return? Some questions.
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2006, 12:46:14 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
Quote from: mercie


Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds,  nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail  , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and  clouds  just may mean Messengers.

.


Mercie, where did I say lightning always means lightning or any such thing? I wrote that the clouds in this instance and many others point to the elect, messengers if you will, I invited others to do a word search to verify.

Thanks,

Joe


Joe.
One can veiw the scriptures you gave concerning the resurrection as some Future event  or be seen as Being now for the messengers of God.


I added valleys mountains etc as much for the Benift of Origin in the Hope  for Him to see the point of My post.


Mentioning some here spirtualize away the scriptures. :D

I ve read Just the latest Thread By Nightmare  and was nearly tempted to say WE dont spirtualize Spirtualize the Scriptures away as some may deem it Heresy.

Peace
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