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Author Topic: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray  (Read 12215 times)

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carol v

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journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« on: August 12, 2009, 06:35:47 PM »

Don't know why I sent this to poor Ray. Last thing he needs is another long email. Should have just gotten it off my chest here. So here it is -- my testimony.

Dear Ray,
 
I hope you are doing better and don't mean to add to your workload. I've come full circle to total confusion.
 
When I discovered the Lake of Fire 5 years ago -- I thought I had been let inside of the most incredible spiritual truths I had ever known. I devoured every word you wrote and every audio produced. I read all of Mike's stuff too. I even had a slight notion that I might actually be one of the elect because of these great secrets of scripture God was showing me.
 
I devoted hours and hours to study, prayer, participating in the forum and self-flagellating myself to humility. I prayed for truth. I beat myself up for the slightest sin.
 
When you and Mike fell out. I continued to read you both for a very long time. I eventually came down with you on the Christ Made Sin thing, but it was a long road to get there. I was fellowshipping with Mike's group on Sunday afternoons on Skype and participating in your forum.
 
Then Mike took the Christ made sin thing and changed it to the Christ is carnal thing. Maybe he was saying that all along but to me, he hadn't. Many of us quit fellowshipping with Mike then. His website closed down because those running it disagreed with his teaching as well.
 
But a few of us started our own skype fellowship and invited others.  First there was an endless argument about the new man/old man that ended with a split between those two debaters.
 
The group decided to study Revelation together. Ha ha ha ha. I guess you know how that went.
 
One of us wanted to study the man of perdition being a real man. The rest of us didn't. I won't go on about what all the problems were but I was receiving pages and pages of emails every day of endless scriptural arguments.
 
The forum was no better. I used to go on the forum and actually offer a lot of answers to questions. I was under the perception that I actually knew something. Most of it was based on stuff I had learned through you, Mike and Andrew Jukes.
 
Then one of our fellowship members rebelled at the man-of-perdition-is-real thing and quit. We were all ready to bail but he was first. But before quitting he read your Two Towers papers, and declared you a heretic. Then he read some Jukes and declared him a heretic, Since my favorite book was The Types of Genesis, his calling Jukes a heretic too was even more confusing.
 
Every teacher I had listened to was a heretic?  So when I was praying and praying and praying and praying for years for truth, I received heresy? Cool. I am the strong delusion. Thanks so much God.
 
I just couldn't stand the arguing anymore.
 
I became unable to study or read the Bible at all. Apparently there are not two people on the planet that agree. The endless scriptural arguments made my brain freeze.
 
Who are these elect? I can't find them. Who in the heck are the members of the body of Christ and how am I supposed to be a part of them? Ain't any in my West Texas town. All I know are hell-believers.
 
The only person I ever met in my 5 years in this journey since the Lake of Fire series that I thought was probably elect was Willard Rogers. A kind and gentle soul to me but I know he was a friend you had a falling out with so your opinion is probably different.
 
Last time I read Matthew I had no clue what a single word of it meant anymore. Gibberish. I used to read Matthew thinking I had a clue. I was just so-o-o-o spiritual.
 
THEN THIS:
 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-baby-killed_N.htm
 
Now one thing I believe in is God's sovereignty but I have always had a problem with your explanations of God not forcing us to sin but simply creating us to sin. Before I started reading the Lake of Fire, my problem was that people gave God credit for the good stuff and no responsibility for the bad.
 
I called it my "unanswered prayer" argument. Don't all victims of rape, murder, kidnapping, war and violence pray? Aren't we all praying in the trenches. If God chooses not to answer prayer, doesn't that make Him responsible. If God doesn't answer the prayers of the victims then isn't God also guilty of the crime.
 
Ray, there is a woman in San Antonio that has decapitated and eaten the brain of her infant. I feel nothing but overwhelming pity and sadness for her. Where is God?
 
How can I pray?
 
I have been walking around for years kicking myself because of the stupidest stuff.  OH NO.  I wrote a school excuse saying my son was sick when he actually came home way too late last night and is just tired. Will God ever excuse this awful lie?
 
OH NO. I dropped the F-bomb in front of the teenagers again when that 18-wheeler was slipping into my lane. Will God ever excuse me. What an awful, awful person I am. Terrible, terrible. Just a wad of carnal flesh am I.
 
Well when does God have to answer. I spent decades arguing with God over the hell doctrine before reading the Lake of Fire and now I'm arguing with him again. When does God have to answer?
 
After 5 decades of migraine that have controlled my life I was finally screaming at God a few weeks ago to either heal me or kill me. I can't take it anymore. He did neither so I went for new meds and started even another natural treatment plan too. If the country collapses and I lose air-conditioning and medication I will eat the oleander. It will be self-euthanasia and not suicide. I will not make it. Is death by oleander really painful? I'm picturing foaming at the mouth with horrific gut pain -- all better than migraine.
 
Who the hell knows the truth? Where are the elect? Why can no one agree? Why is the Word so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure?
 
Why am I kicking myself about still dropping the F-bomb when there is a woman in San Antonio who is so sadly, tragically ill that she would decapitate her infant and eat the poor thing's brains and a few toes. Yes, she ate some toes too.
 
Hey God. Who do you answer to?  I used to say, just like you taught me Ray, that it's one big character building journey here on earth as God creates us into His image. But GOD. There is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains.
 
I can't read the Word. I can't pray for help for anything. I still believe but it is surrounded by complete confusion.
 
I only go to your forum to check on your health now. There they all are, arguing the fine points of scripture as if they have a clue. I have taken up gardening and arguing with God again. I don't understand. And frankly, I am so tired of listening to and arguing myself about the fine points of scripture.
 
This 'elect' thing is laughable. I actually started laughing out loud this morning at myself for ever thinking I was part of the elect at one time. That is so funny.
 
God, there is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains and toes. Did we really need that?
 
Makes me want to drop a bunch of F-bombs and go check my tomatoes.
 
I still love you though Ray. But after 5 years of study, I understand less than ever.
 
Carol V
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 08:11:36 PM »

Just got off the phone with Ray about this email. Ray will be answering soon.
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Samson

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 09:00:03 PM »

Dear Carol,

               Thankyou for your candid and straight from the Heart testimony, I really enjoyed it. All of us, that most definitely includes me, as well, have a war going on inside ourselves, a carnal war caused by our fleshly nature, the flesh is enmity with God. Regarding who is of the Elect, I don't know, we won't really know until we endure to the end of our lives(Age). I'm satisfied to leave that in God's hands. I've learned many things from studying Ray's material, sometimes I don't grasp all of it, sometimes I don't retain all of it and sometimes I don't remember all of it. Also, By the Grace of God, most of us haven't done anything as horrific as what you describe the Woman doing to her infant. By the Grace of God we are not like Adolph Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer and many other individuals who committed horrific acts. Under the exact circumstances and causes, we would have been like the above.


              I'm approaching this learning and knowledge of everything, Spirit-Wise, as a personal journey, not concerned whether I can argue better or know more or think I'm more righteous, because I'm refuse, garbage or fleshly filth that only God has the power to clean up when he wills it. Do I have the desire to act better, think better and treat others better, of course, but we can't do it on our own, if we could, we would have done it by now. Jesus tells us to Love Our Enemies and pray for those who persecute us, no one can follow that instruction without God causing us to do so, a simple Scripture like that, easy to understand, but I never met anyone in person who practices that. The fact you are here and desire to know the Truth with the right attitude, tells me that God is working with you in this Age. I've talked to many people throughout the course of my life and they don't even care to find out what's true or false. Apparently God hasn't even caused them to even care enough to find out. When Pontius Pilate asked Jesus: " What is Truth," did he even really care or was that just an excuse that no one can really find it or it's only relative. Our Sufferings, Trials and Tribulations are part of the process we have to endure, in this Age and/or the Age to come before we can become part of God's Spiritual Family.

        I'm sorry if there's anything that I have done to cause you distress, I didn't mean it. Sometimes in life, I get confused about God's plan and purpose and it seems like some kind of nightmare, I will eventually wake up from. Anyway, hope to here more from you, hope your migraines go away, don't know how your able to tolerate such repetitive pain. Hang in there and continue to dine at this Spiritual table provided by God through Ray.

                                         Kind Regards, Samson.
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bluzman

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 11:05:39 PM »

Dear Carol,
I am very, very sorry to hear about those migraines. One of my sons suffers terribly from what the medical people
term ' cluster headaches'. He has suffered with then for a number of years now. He is a grown man, tough as nails,
but when he has an attack, it instantly disables him and he cries like a baby. I cannot hardly bear the thought of him getting the next one.
The next thing on the agenda for him is to try to get oxygen prescribed so he can lay down with the oxygen mask and rest.
Maybe oxygen will be of some help for you. No one can feel another person's pain, but I can understand a little of yours.
God Bless,
Ches 
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Dennis Vogel

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Part 1 - Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2009, 11:50:35 AM »

[Ray's reply]

Dear Carol:  It's Thursday, 3:41 a.m., I can't sleep, so I thought I would answer your email before dozens on the Forum give your their version of wisdom that will solve all of your problems in one simple reading.  I will make some comments in your email, as you raise several interesting dilemmas that concern us all...


Dear Ray,

I hope you are doing better and don't mean to add to your workload. I've come full circle to total confusion.

COMMENT:  I am okay.  Not great, but okay.  I haven't had a really good day this year, but I am not depressed nor discouraged, nor confused.

When I discovered the Lake of Fire 5 years ago -- I thought I had been let inside of the most incredible spiritual truths I had ever known. I devoured every word you wrote and every audio produced. I read all of Mike's stuff too. I even had a slight notion that I might actually be one of the elect because of these great secrets of scripture God was showing me.

COMMENT:  And well you may be.  My Lake of Fire series is still 99.44% the same as it was ten years ago when I began writing it.  There are "most incredible spiritual truths" in this series.  Not because I wrote them, but because they are SCRIPTURE.

I devoted hours and hours to study, prayer, participating in the forum and self-flagellating myself to humility. I prayed for truth. I beat myself up for the slightest sin.

COMMENT:  I can say "ditto," except that I do not "beat myself up for the slightest sin" anymore.  You are where I was over forty years ago (thirty years before we started bible-truths.com).  Both Dennis and I can identify with what you are writing and feeling.  You are not alone in this strange journey of the human experience.

When you and Mike fell out. I continued to read you both for a very long time. I eventually came down with you on the Christ Made Sin thing, but it was a long road to get there. I was fellowshipping with Mike's group on Sunday afternoons on Skype and participating in your forum.

COMMENT:  It may come as a shock for most to know that doctrine was not the most important reason that I took Mike's material or reference to it off of my site.  I think Mike wanted a following.  I think he wanted to be thought of as a great spiritual leader.  I think he though of himself as playing second fiddle to me and/or bible-truths.com.  But what he didn't fully realize was that his notoriety came not through his site, but mine.  And yes, at that same time and immediately following our separation, some of his new "revelations" were among the most damnable heresy and blasphemy of Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit that I have ever encountered in my life (IMO).  There was no way that I could continue to support such utter unscriptural swill.  It did not take years or "a long road to get there" for me.  But then again, God had already grounded us in the Truths of God's Word.  I did not need to go back and be re-grounded.

Then Mike took the Christ made sin thing and changed it to the Christ is carnal thing. Maybe he was saying that all along but to me, he hadn't. Many of us quit fellowshipping with Mike then. His website closed down because those running it disagreed with his teaching as well.

COMMENT:  I have nearly fifty pages of notes on the theme:  "Was Jesus Made Sin," which I will put into a full article (God willing).  The teaching that Jesus Christ was the very personification of sin itself, is the most damnable piece of heresy next to "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Weise (which I am also writing a full article on) that I have read in my entire 68 year life!

But a few of us started our own skype fellowship and invited others.  First there was an endless argument about the new man/old man that ended with a split between those two debaters.

COMMENT:  That is always a potential problem, Carol.  All too many hear and learn a few basic truths of God and His Word and then fancy themselves teachers and spiritual leaders.  I don't know anything about Mike's site closing down, but I do know that Dennis and I have had to close down some site pages that have plagiarized my material and then added to it their personal touch of heresy.  There are all to many who are:

     "Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" (I Tim. 1:7).


The group decided to study Revelation together. Ha ha ha ha. I guess you know how that went.

COMMENT:  Revelation is not a book for beginners and spiritual minors.

One of us wanted to study the man of perdition being a real man. The rest of us didn't. I won't go on about what all the problems were but I was receiving pages and pages of emails every day of endless scriptural arguments.

The forum was no better. I used to go on the forum and actually offer a lot of answers to questions. I was under the perception that I actually knew something. Most of it was based on stuff I had learned through you, Mike and Andrew Jukes.

COMMENT:  Our bible-truths Forum serves a good and useful purpose, but trust me, THERE IS A REASON WHY WE DON'T ALLOW PERSONAL TEACHING OF PERSONAL DOCTRINES on our Forum.  

Then one of our fellowship members rebelled at the man-of-perdition-is-real thing and quit. We were all ready to bail but he was first. But before quitting he read your Two Towers papers, and declared you a heretic. Then he read some Jukes and declared him a heretic, Since my favorite book was The Types of Genesis, his calling Jukes a heretic too was even more confusing.

COMMENT:  About the only real criticism I have received from my Towers paper have come from conspiracy theorists, who have bought into the idea that God had nothing to do with this disaster, and that the US Government brought down these towers by means of demolition.  I never went into whether anyone in our Government knew in advance that this attack was coming, but to suggest that the Towers fell because had demolition bombs planted throughout the buildings starting at ground level and even below, is utter nonsense.  I saw the buildings fall on live television with my own eyes, and they did not fall because the foundations were bombed out from under them, THEY FELL FROM THE TOP DOWN at the point of impact by the jetliners!

Every teacher I had listened to was a heretic?  So when I was praying and praying and praying and praying for years for truth, I received heresy? Cool. I am the strong delusion. Thanks so much God.

COMMENT:  We ALL were taught heresy, Carol.  If we never went into Babylon the Great (Mother of spiritual harlots), God could not have called us OUT!  We should "thank God," but not sarcastically.  

Listen to me, Carol:  I see you now as being further along in your understanding than you were years ago.  Don't let the reality of this worlds sins and evils discourage you from holding on to God's great spiritual truths and plan for our eternal destiny.  

I too have prayed hard (especially these past ten years since staring bible-truths) to get and keep sin out of my life.  This along with helping others see the Truth of God's Word, IS MY LIFE, MY ONLY LIFE.  So what "thanks" from God do I receive?  A miserable and painful disease that is rotting my very body out from under me?  Is that how I should be looking at my trial?  It could be many times worse.  The pain could be many times worse.  I could have died last year already.  My family medical doctor (Dr. Alin Sherman) told me three weeks ago that he never in a million years thought that he would see me alive in July 2009.  I'm still here, and I'm still trying to do God's work.  I don't know what next week or next month holds for me.  I am in constant pain, and I don't sleep well at all, and I am extremely enervated and exhausted most of the time.  So should I too say: "Thanks so much God?"  Should I follow the advice of Job's wife and "CURSE God and die?"  I don't think so.  I am in this for the long haul.  I had rather be like Job when he corrected his wife:

      Job 2:10 But he said unto her, You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive E-V-I-L? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Carol:  you are now "receiving EVIL at the hand of God."  Joseph, David, Daniel, Paul, they all "received EVIL at the hand of God."  We are no different.  Don't let it discourage you or destroy you.  Throw yourself on God's mercy and He will give you peace.  In my present condition and trial, I can't tell you the satisfaction I receive from those who are praying for me; supporting me; and suffering right along with me.  It brings tears to my eyes, not self pity, tears of joy.  

God is calling out a people a "chosen Elect FEW," and at least part of that is being accomplished through this ministry.  How great is that?  Does that not deserve a little (or maybe a lot) of suffering?  Should I not have to put my own money where my mouth is concerning this spiritual walk with God?  Don't let anyone write you off, Carol, just because your trial seems greater than you can presently bear.  Don't forget the words of Paul:

2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

God can make you much stronger through this trial, Carol.  Fair weather Christians are a dime a dozen as they say, but what about in times of adversity?
Pro 24:10  If you faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.

This is the time for your victory, Carol, not your defeat.


[continued below]

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 11:58:33 AM by Dennis Vogel »
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Dennis Vogel

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Part 2 - Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2009, 11:51:35 AM »

[continued from part 1]

I just couldn't stand the arguing anymore.

I became unable to study or read the Bible at all. Apparently there are not two people on the planet that agree. The endless scriptural arguments made my brain freeze.

Who are these elect? I can't find them. Who in the heck are the members of the body of Christ and how am I supposed to be a part of them? Ain't any in my West Texas town. All I know are hell-believers.

COMMENT:  There are members of the body of Christ on our Forum, Carol.  Maybe not all, but they are there, and they will all be praying for you just as they have been praying for me.

The only person I ever met in my 5 years in this journey since the Lake of Fire series that I thought was probably elect was Willard Rogers. A kind and gentle soul to me but I know he was a friend you had a falling out with so your opinion is probably different.

COMMENT:  I assure you that my "falling out" as you put it with Williard was not based on "opinion."

Last time I read Matthew I had no clue what a single word of it meant anymore. Gibberish. I used to read Matthew thinking I had a clue. I was just so-o-o-o spiritual.

THEN THIS:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-baby-killed_N.htm

Now one thing I believe in is God's sovereignty but I have always had a problem with your explanations of God not forcing us to sin but simply creating us to sin. Before I started reading the Lake of Fire, my problem was that people gave God credit for the good stuff and no responsibility for the bad.

I called it my "unanswered prayer" argument. Don't all victims of rape, murder, kidnapping, war and violence pray? Aren't we all praying in the trenches. If God chooses not to answer prayer, doesn't that make Him responsible. If God doesn't answer the prayers of the victims then isn't God also guilty of the crime.

COMMENT:  Actually, not all victims of rape, murder or kidnapping, etc. pray.  And yes, God is responsible for His entire creation, but God is guilty of NO CRIME.

Ray, there is a woman in San Antonio that has decapitated and eaten the brain of her infant. I feel nothing but overwhelming pity and sadness for her. Where is God?

How can I pray?

COMMENT:  This is something you will have to work out with God.  I am aware of and have been for a long time, the evils of this world and the sins of humanity, yet I pray constantly.  With you, the stark reality of how sick humans can get, was brought home by this recent tragedy of a woman killing her infant.  With me, I think the reality of man's inhumanity struck home many many years ago when I was watching a movie in which some mobsters took this man captive and took an electric drill and started drilling holes through his knees.  The reality of that evil stuck with me for a long time.  I don't have a complete answer for such intense evil in God's wisdom, but I yet hope to find the answer in the Scriptures.  

I have been walking around for years kicking myself because of the stupidest stuff.  OH NO.  I wrote a school excuse saying my son was sick when he actually came home way too late last night and is just tired. Will God ever excuse this awful lie?

OH NO. I dropped the F-bomb in front of the teenagers again when that 18-wheeler was slipping into my lane. Will God ever excuse me. What an awful, awful person I am. Terrible, terrible. Just a wad of carnal flesh am I.

Well when does God have to answer. I spent decades arguing with God over the hell doctrine before reading the Lake of Fire and now I'm arguing with him again. When does God have to answer?

COMMENT:  We cannot judge God, Carol.  We may question what He does and how He does it, but we can't find Him guilty of any crime.  God is not a criminal.  And yes, we are "a wad of carnal flesh," but God does not condemn us for this:

      Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I really hope you will be able to attend our November Bible Conference, as it will be talking all about YOU.  That is all about all of you who attend.  I am going to talk about just such things as to whether we should always be walking around with a cloud over our heads as though we are not worthy to even approach God in our needs.  I will be talking about "FORGETTING the past..." as Paul instructed us.


After 5 decades of migraine that have controlled my life I was finally screaming at God a few weeks ago to either heal me or kill me. I can't take it anymore. He did neither so I went for new meds and started even another natural treatment plan too. If the country collapses and I lose air-conditioning and medication I will eat the oleander. It will be self-euthanasia and not suicide. I will not make it. Is death by oleander really painful? I'm picturing foaming at the mouth with horrific gut pain -- all better than migraine.

COMMENT:  My wife has had RSD (regional sympathetic dystrophy syndrome) for about ten years now.  When she worked for the Police Chief of North Miami Beach for years on the computer, she developed carpel tunnel.  She had a simple out-patient operation, but the pain never left, but rather intensified. After visiting many experts she was finally diagnosed correctly.  The pain is constant and extremely intense.  She would have had her arm amputated years ago, except that it doesn't solve the pain problem. It moves through the body--to her legs (she has been in a wheelchair more often than not in recent weeks, her breasts, her other arm and hand, her face, and her head.  She too has intense headaches for months at a time.  At one time she took a half dozen medications at the same time (headache pills that cost $16 per pill).  Twelve thousand dollars a year in Oxycontin (up to 300 mgs a day).  She has cut down considerably on strong pain killers in recent years, and just endures more pain.  She sleeps normally twenty to forty minutes a night.  But she does then sleep sometimes a couple of hours during the day, maybe averaging 2-3 hours of sleep daily.  Yet she feels bad that she can't do more for me and my condition, when in reality she does everything for me.  She prepares all my special meals and juices, along with putting together the 12 to 14 groups of supplements I take daily.  When she's around people, she smiles and no one knows there is a thing wrong with her.  My daughter is bi-polar.  Dennis' son is bi-polar.  My wife has contemplated suicide many times in recent years.  Her daughter is the main reason she hasn't done it.  Life is hard.  I am not a stranger to pain and suffering.  But this too will pass.

Who the hell knows the truth? Where are the elect? Why can no one agree? Why is the Word so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure?

COMMENT:  I KNOW THE TRUTH, and others do as well.  We don't need to agree on every single issue in life in order to know the truth.  Even Paul and Barnabas had a huge disagreement at one time in their ministry.  The "Elect" are made up of just such people.  And the Word is not "so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure."  Except for the words "hell" and "eternal," there are very few convoluted translations.  Nonetheless, it does take the Spirit of God to understand spiritual things.

Why am I kicking myself about still dropping the F-bomb when there is a woman in San Antonio who is so sadly, tragically ill that she would decapitate her infant and eat the poor thing's brains and a few toes. Yes, she ate some toes too.

Hey God. Who do you answer to?  I used to say, just like you taught me Ray, that it's one big character building journey here on earth as God creates us into His image. But GOD. There is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains.

I can't read the Word. I can't pray for help for anything. I still believe but it is surrounded by complete confusion.

COMMENT:  God is fully aware of this woman in Texas who killed her child, but God doesn't answer to anyone.  And God is not on trial at the bar of human justice.  For sure that woman's child is no longer suffering, and will never again suffer like that for all eternity.  Our lack of total understanding does not qualify us to judge God or His ways.  One day we will know all the truth concerning all things, and the time is coming when "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).  All these evils are coming to an end, Carol.  Don't be discouraged.  God will see you through this.

I only go to your forum to check on your health now. There they all are, arguing the fine points of scripture as if they have a clue. I have taken up gardening and arguing with God again. I don't understand. And frankly, I am so tired of listening to and arguing myself about the fine points of scripture.

COMMENT:  Well, I'm afraid I have to agree with you on some of this, albeit, I think I do understand a great deal of what God is doing and why.

This 'elect' thing is laughable. I actually started laughing out loud this morning at myself for ever thinking I was part of the elect at one time. That is so funny.

God, there is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains and toes. Did we really need that?

Makes me want to drop a bunch of F-bombs and go check my tomatoes.

COMMENT:  No, Carol, "this elect thing" is not laughable.  It may be laughable that some of the greatest heretics who ever lived fancied themselves among God's elect, however, that does not negate the fact that there was and is a chosen Elect few in whom God has placed His Holy Spirit.

I still love you though Ray. Still send money every month for the web site. But after 5 years of study, I understand less than ever.

Carol Vandiver
Sweetwater, TX

COMMENT:  Well, Thank You, Carol, and I love you too.  Actually you don't "understand less than ever."  You are merely more discouraged than ever, but this too shall pass.  And don't let anyone judge you regarding your discouragement.  Many proud and boastful believers have fallen by the wayside when the shoe is on the other foot as they say.  I thank God and all who have been praying for me, that after three days and three nights in the heart of the earth a year ago this month, I have not been depressed or discouraged since.  I have no choice--I must be strong for all those who have come to a knowledge of the truth through my ministry.   I cannot let terminal cancer or anything else discourage me from remaining faithful to God and His word.  Your salvation is closer now, Carol, than when you first believed.  

This is no time to throw in the towel.  It is now 6:15 and the sun is coming up over Mobile bay.  It's a new day.  It can be a bright shiny day, if we allow the spirit of God to uphold us in our trials.  This is not some strange new thing that has come upon you, Carol.  It's just that you are more honest than most who will be reading your email.  Return to God and He will return to you.  I'm praying for you, Carol.  Others will likewise be praying for you.

May God be with you always,

Ray

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 11:52:37 AM by Dennis Vogel »
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Ninny

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2009, 12:51:35 PM »

Dennis,
I have to say I have fought back the tears while reading this...and for Carol..the pain of life is so real. We all have pain and discouragement in different degrees. What Ray has said in response is packed full of years of painfully gained wisdom and understanding..thank you for placing this here for us all to read. It kind of hits home for me and I know for others as well.
Kathy

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arion

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2009, 01:04:23 PM »

I can add nothing to Ray's reply or even offer any wisdom to you Carol other than this.

Don't doubt in the darkness what God has given you in the light.


I learned one or two nuggets from my former teachers in Babylon and this is one of them.  And I think it's true.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2009, 05:21:22 PM »

Isolation and despair meet empathy and hope.

This topic really underlines the bittersweet experience that is this earthly journey.

Peace,

Joe

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tinknocker

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2009, 06:21:21 PM »

Isolation and despair meet empathy and hope.

This topic really underlines the bittersweet experience that is this earthly journey.

Peace,

Joe



Amen to that Joe
There was a time of about 5 years I suffered cluster head aches. But I haven't had one in 15 years that I can remember. I do recall in the mist of them wanting to end it all by whatever means possible. Good thing I had disposed of my handguns  ;)
Carol I also will be praying for you for relief in the head aches and in God providing peace and clarity in your walk. I also check in with Mike and was very distraught when Ray and Mike ceased to fellowship with each other. I also remember Willard's gentle spirit and miss it. In all the confusion I hold on to this verse.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding; 6  think about Him in all your ways, and He will guide you on the right paths.

And this verse has been my security blanket;
Psalms 30:5
For His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor, a lifetime. Weeping may spend the night, but there is joy in the morning.

Blessings
Tom
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 06:23:11 PM by tinknocker »
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daywalker

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 06:52:59 PM »


Hello Carol,

Don't be discouraged, you're on the right track.


"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)

"Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer" (Rom. 12:12)



You're not alone! I'll keep you in my prayers.  :)


Peace,

Christopher.  8)
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lauriellen

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2009, 12:09:04 AM »

i have no words of wisdom to offer, just felt compelled to thank God for the love and faithfulness of Ray, and all here on the forum. So many lives are better because of the love and truth found here.  I can really relate to alot of the feelings expressed on this post myself. When i get really down and confused, i just remind myself, "this is not my home."  I am just trying to keep my focus on the horizon knowing that each day that passes, is a day closer to the reconcilliation of all things. In the end, that is all that matters. May God richly bless you all.
lauriellen
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ericsteven

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 01:09:16 AM »

I have no words of wisdom of my own, but here are some verses from the little read prophet Habbakuk that may echo what you seem to be feeling.  (from the New Living Translation)

Hab 1:2     How long, O Lord, must I call for help? But you do not listen! "Violence!" I cry, but you do not come to save.

Hab 1:3     Must I forever see this sin and misery all around me? Wherever I look, I see destruction and violence. I am surrounded by people who love to argue and fight.

Hab 1:4      The law has become paralyzed and useless, and there is no justice given in the courts. The wicked far outnumber the righteous, and justice is perverted with bribes and trickery.


The Lord gives Habbakuk a vision of what judgment is to come, at which Habbakuk protests once more.  Then the Lord reminds him that everything will happen at the appointed time.

Hab 2:2     Then the Lord said to me, "Write my answer in large, clear letters on a tablet, so that a runner can read it and tell everyone else.

Hab 2:3     But these things I plan won't happen right away. Slowly, steadily, surely, the time approaches when the vision will be fulfilled. If it seems slow, wait patiently, for it will surely take place. It will not be delayed.


The book then ends with a prayer by Habbakuk.

Hab 3:17    Even though the fig trees have no blossoms, and there are no grapes on the vine; even though the olive crop fails, and the fields lie empty and barren; even though the flocks die in the fields, and the cattle barns are empty,

Hab 3:18    yet I will rejoice in the Lord! I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.

Hab 3:19    The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He will make me as surefooted as a deer and bring me safely over the mountains.


This brings me peace.  Hopefully it will to you and others as well.

God bless you,

Eric
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aqrinc

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2009, 04:12:10 AM »


Hi Carol V,

Just rest in HIS SABBATH, we do have this rest; if we stop working our own works.

Heb 4: 1-16 (CLV)
1 We may be afraid then, lest at some time, a promise being left of entering into His stopping, anyone of you may be seeming to be deficient."
2 For we also have been evangelized, even as those also. But the word heard does not benefit those hearers, not having been blended together with faith in those who hear."

3 Then we who believe are entering into the stopping, according as He has declared, "As I swear in My indignation, 'If they shall be entering into My stopping-!'although the works occur from the disruption of the world."

4 For He has declared somewhere concerning the seventh thus: And God stops "on the seventh day from all His works."

5 And in this again, "If they shall be entering into My stopping-!"
6 Since, then, it is left for some to be entering into it, and those to whom the evangel was formerly brought did not enter because of stubbornness,

7 He is again specifying a certain day, "Today"-saying in David after so much time, according as has been declared before, "Today, if ever His voice you should be hearing, You should not be hardening your hearts."

8 For if Joshua causes them to stop, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things."
9 Consequently a sabbatism is left for the people of God.
10 For he who is entering into His stopping, he also stops from his works even as God from His own."

11 We should be endeavoring, then, to be entering into that stopping, lest anyone should be falling into the same example of stubbornness."

12 For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."

13 And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom we are accountable.

14 Having, then, a great Chief Priest, Who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, we may be holding to the avowal."
15 For we have not a Chief Priest not able to sympathize with our infirmities, but One Who has been tried in all respects like us, apart from sin."

16 We may be coming, then, with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may be obtaining mercy and finding grace for opportune help."

george. :)

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Robin

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 04:17:34 AM »

Thank you Ray for your beautiful email and thank you Carol for your honesty.

I would much rather see someone asking the hard questions than asking no questions at all. I know people who seem to just pull things right out of the air and understand them. I am not one of those. I break everything down in a million pieces and then put it back in a box that is understandable to me. I have had to wait until God answered my hard questions to put in that piece. I learn the hard way. It took me 5 years to learn that there is no free will. Piece by little piece. Circumstance by circumstance. Suffering and more suffering.

I felt insane most of that time and confusion was screaming at me. My faith was attacked every step of the way. God pulled the rug out from under my reality. When I found BT God pulled the rug out even more.

I learned that a lot of those hard questions were the flaming arrows of the evil one that were used to attack God's character. They put fear and doubt in my heart. Even this was all a process in my life to strengthen me. I learned to not doubt God even though I didn't have the answer yet. I learned that God is good even though some things make him look bad from our limited sight. I learned that all my thoughts that attacked God's character were not of God. The wrestling I went through was my carnal man wrestling against the will of God.

My son is an alcoholic and has been for years. He is so close to death so many times and my heart aches. I've had to go through such hard lessons through all of that. I've had to learn to accept the unacceptable and do things no mother should have to do.

My grandson and granddaughter have chronic daily migraines. They have never been able to go to school or play like other kids. My grandson hasn't been able to get out of bed for the last six weeks. He has a migraine 24 hours a day now.

I do not have joy through these trials, but God has taught me to accept his will and most of the time I can believe that his plan is good. I do fall into a day of despair now and then though.

Romans 5:3-5

 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


God has never failed to answer my questions even though it took years sometimes. I had to learn that I could not lean on my own understanding. I think that might be what you are learning now through this process. Just another rug being pulled out from under you. He is faithful though. I might not be able to trust in my own understanding, but I can trust that he understands all and he is in charge of me.
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9440geoff

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2009, 11:07:47 AM »

Thank you Carol  for sharing your heart with us. Thank you Ray for your response, and thank you Dennis for making it happen.

It's great when we read about good news on the forum, but the reality is that we all have our cross to bear. The good news about that is that our Lord knows exactly what we're going through, He is with us in our suffering, and is interceding for us with our Father.

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Geoff
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Amrhrasach

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2009, 12:01:39 PM »

Iíve hesitated to post since yesterday morning, probably shouldnít still.   God gave 2 ears 1 mouth, so Iím attempting to live by ďshut up every chance you getĒ, which is good course for someone who understands very little of Gods ways.

Carol thank you for your post.  Your words have been ringing in my head, and will continue.   Sometimes it sure seems like God has lost his eyesight and his hearing.

Ray I know you donít read the forum and that makes me sad because you wonít know how grateful I am to God for you and your wisdom, courage and inspiration and your generosity.



And to M.G., thank you for these words:


"I know people who seem to just pull things right out of the air and understand them. I am not one of those. I break everything down in a million pieces and then put it back in a box that is understandable to me. I have had to wait until God answered my hard questions to put in that piece. I learn the hard way. It took me 5 years to learn that there is no free will. Piece by little piece. Circumstance by circumstance. Suffering and more suffering.

I felt insane most of that time and confusion was screaming at me. My faith was attacked every step of the way. God pulled the rug out from under my reality. When I found BT God pulled the rug out even more."



Right to the heart of the matter M.G., thank you, I could search for a long time to find the right words but you said it perfect.  Now I know Iím not insane. Now I know there is life after confusion and that, hopefully, the next train stop is at this point:



I learned that a lot of those hard questions were the flaming arrows of the evil one that were used to attack God's character. They put fear and doubt in my heart. Even this was all a process in my life to strengthen me. I learned to not doubt God even though I didn't have the answer yet. I learned that God is good even though some things make him look bad from our limited sight. I learned that all my thoughts that attacked God's character were not of God. The wrestling I went through was my carnal man wrestling against the will of God.




Gary
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firefly77

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2009, 01:26:55 PM »

Hi to all who have contributed to this thread; I appreciate everyone's honesty and transparency...  I can so relate!
Quote
I felt insane most of that time and confusion was screaming at me. My faith was attacked every step of the way. God pulled the rug out from under my reality. When I found BT God pulled the rug out even more."

Right to the heart of the matter M.G., thank you, I could search for a long time to find the right words but you said it perfect.  Now I know Iím not insane. Now I know there is life after confusion and that, hopefully, the next train stop is at this point:
After 4 years of confusion, I am finally arriving at a place where everything is making more sense than it ever has. Just reading that others have had this "insane" feeling in the beginning makes me feel not so alone. It is good to be part of this wonderful group.

Angie
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carol v

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2009, 04:31:26 PM »

I read Ray's response yesterday. Thank you Dennis. I would like to thank Ray especially and all those here. Your comments and scriptures mean a lot to me.

I wish I had mentioned in my original email that this woman in San Antonio is schizophrenic -- a point which nullifies the usual debate over free will v. God's sovereignty. This woman made no choice.

She also said that "the devil made her do it." But the only one I see sending evil spirits in scripture is God. To me, the devil is a non-entity in the overall scheme of things. God is sovereign.

Ray's letter was beautiful though and please thank him for me Dennis. I would love to sign up for the November conference.

Samson -- you have done NOTHING to cause me any stress. I did not mean my comments about the forum to be personal to anyone. It's the debating of scripture I am weary of.

Looking for heretics and babylonians under every bush has made me unloving, impatient and self-righteous at times.

Bluzman -- I'm a believer in oxygen. Haven't tried a tank but I do a miracle of a little workout called Oxycise. Doesn't help my headaches much but it has made me lose weight and feel better. It's great for everyone and even those with bad knees or feet can get all the cardio and muscle toning they want. No equipment, no  shoes, no sweating, and ladies, you don't even have to wear a bra. 15 MINUTES A DAY!

Ray -- I am still confused about how we are "receiving evil at the hand of God" yet God is guilty of no crime. I don't know who or what is responsible for the death of this baby but the mother is the last person I would blame. A schizophrenic with post partum depression cannot be held responsible. Yet I know these are questions that confuse us all.

And where is the line between "not agreeing on every issue" and heresy. I look forward to discussing all these things with you at the conference.

ericsteven -- WOW. I love the Habbakuk scriptures. I will mark those scriptures in my Bible if I ever open it again. (a little joke, very little)

MG, I've got to say that your situation only makes me more depressed -- I know you have been praying fervently for all those years.

What does it mean that with the faith of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain?  We don't have faith?

God definitely has a sense of humor though. In the midst of it all I have such terrible menopausal symptoms that I could cry at a picture of a kitten -- and I am a dog person!!

Okay, I'm as tired of my wallowing in self-pity as you guys must be of listening to my wallowing. Whew. I really hope to attend the conference and will hope that Ray's health will allow him to be there.

I heard a country-western song yesterday that kind of sums it up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqrogegV1lw

Amen.

Love you all,
Carol

« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 02:50:23 PM by carol v »
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Vangie

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Re: journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 10:18:53 PM »

Hi Carol,
I LIKE that song--it is upbeat in spite of the fact that "people are crazy".  Or maybe because of it..God is great, beer is good--like you said, that sums it up.  No need to give the "people are crazy" bit a whole lot more credence, as we don't have a say at all regarding that. I've been there (psycho land) myself, and who knows what God has in store for the schizophrenic San Antonio lady.  I pray she gets the opportunity to experience the opposite of where she is now.  I'm so thankful that my eyes and ears are being opened daily, as but for the grace of God, I could have done the same type of heinous acts that she did to her own child back in that era when I was out of it.  And regarding the baby, I'd like to think that the saying "God never gives us more than we can handle" applies to children as well.  When pain nears the point of unbearable, He takes either it, or the one experiencing it, away.  No need to doubt His sovereignty regarding us--we are all His children and He loves us.  It is not our place to step in for our God.

I pray that it is God's will to take your headaches and your pain away so that you can feel His Love above the heartache and disgust with the world you are experiencing.  I think Ray's reply speaks volumes to all of us and I really thank you for being so straight up about where you are right now.  I hope I'm not offending you by sharing my thoughts.

Love to you in Christ,
Vangie
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