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Author Topic: the second death?  (Read 6945 times)

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johann

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the second death?
« on: June 11, 2006, 08:52:51 AM »

Hi there
Will someone who knows please let me know what is meant by "the second death".  Please, if you don't know then I don't want to know what you think about it - I want to know from someone who knows what it's all about.  I have asked Ray but apparantly there are 600 others that have e-mailed him that have to be answered first.
Bless you
Johann
...and P.s. I like what I've read on this forum - some really nice folk around...
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rocky

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the second death?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2006, 10:09:23 AM »

The lake of fire is the second death.  If you want to know more what the lake of fire is, then there are 100's of pages to read here.  

http://www.bible-truths.com/
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johann

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the second death?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2006, 11:57:08 AM »

Thank you Rocky

I know that the lake of fire is called the second death from Rev 20:14-15 and Rev 21:8.  My question though is WHAT exactly is "the second death"?  You see, we read in Heb 9:27  "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment"
Now since man can't (according to that verse) die more than once - my question is:  What dies here?  It cannot be man because he has already died once.  Can it perhaps be everything that still stands in opposition to God? Can it be his rebellion?  What is it?  That is my question.  

I don't know if I'm making myself clear enough but this thing bugs me because I agree with everything else Ray says, but this one thing still lingers and leaves me with a niggling question that I would really like to resolve.

You see, there are those who believe in a total obliteration of those who persist in their opposition to God and they use this verse to strengthen their position.
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hillsbororiver

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the second death?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2006, 12:18:32 PM »

You hit the nail on the head Johann, the 2nd death is having our carnality burned away, purged in the Lake of Fire, the process of refinement. The elect go through this when they "die to the flesh" and begin to live in His spirit in their natural lifetime. They (the elect) will also be a part of this Lake, as part of the (spiritual) fire. But like Daniel in the furnace they will not have the chastisement (burning) that those of the 2nd resurrection experience, they will acyually be a part of this (spiritual) fire. As Rocky said, you will find your questions answered in the Lake of Fire series, among others.

Chrissie did an outstanding job of indexing the series so it is now much easier to find the portions of the individual papers you seek.

Joe
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johann

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the second death?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2006, 12:20:38 PM »

Thanks guys
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chrissiela

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the second death?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2006, 09:24:16 PM »

Anybody familiar with the book of Jude? It’s quite short, only one chapter, but quite powerful.

In this book Jude mentions that there are those who are TWICE DEAD.

    Jud 1:10  
But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are WITHOUT WATER, carried about of winds; TREES WHOSE FRUIT WITHERETH, WITHOUT FRUIT, TWICE DEAD, PLUCKED UP BY THE ROOTS;[/u]

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[/list:u]

Now how about those who are in the Lake of Fire (which is the second death)?

    Rev 21:8  But the
fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.[/list:u]

For FEAR is the beginning of wisdom and LOVE CASTETH OUT FEAR. To the pure all things are pure, but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. And we know that he who hates His brother is a murderer. We also know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

See any similarities here between those who “have their part in the Lake of Fireâ€? (which is the second death) and those who are TWICE DEAD?  :wink:


Chrissie
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Daniel

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the second death?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2006, 09:39:48 PM »

Johann had written

Quote
Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment"


How do others here count this into the equation?

Romans 7:9 For I was ALIVE without "the law" ONCE: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I DIED.


In light of what Chrissie shares with being TWICEDEAD, given its appointed ONCE to DIE then judgment.

I'm curious as well

Peace

Daniel
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orion77

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the second death?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2006, 10:39:39 PM »

Satan has been called a liar and a murderer from the beginning.  Jesus, many times called the religious hypocrites of His time, the children of their father the devil.  Why put the words liar and murderer together?  Just because one lies does not make him a murderer, and a murderer does not necessarily make one a liar.  When one falsely accuses anothers name and character, they not only lie, they murder, and murder in an even worse way, because the one who has been falsely accused must deal with these murdering lies for a long time, not just by being killed, no longer to exist.  But these lies, these murdering lies, hinder ones character and reputation for a long time, because we all know most love to hear gossip and most love to let these lies take seed in their minds.

How many of us, by the faith God has given us, have been the blunt of these kind of accusations?  And, these accusations have come from who?  Obviously, it's the ones who have not died to self, who have not realized who the son of perdition is.  It's the many, our older brothers, the ones, who by Gods plan have not the eyes to see.  They not only accuse us, while in our walk, but they accuse the character of God Himself.  To actually believe with their whole heart that God, the God who sent His only Son to pay for our sins, the One who showed that kind of love, which to us is easy to see, but they are still in their own carnal mind, still our brothers and sisters, who we are admonished to forgive, lie and murder.  Even themselves they think they do not, this is what must be burnt out of them, which has been already been burnt out of us.  This to me is the second death, and when they go through the fire, they will see as we do, because it is all through the grace of God, and nothing more, because we are, all of us, not worthy of it.

I am nothing, He is everything, God lives and His words shall not return void.  May the simple truth that is in Christ, who is everlasting life, reign within you.

God bless,

Gary
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rocky

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the second death?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2006, 11:21:52 PM »

Quote from: orion77
Satan has been called a liar and a murderer from the beginning.  Jesus, many times called the religious hypocrites of His time, the children of their father the devil.  Why put the words liar and murderer together?  Just because one lies does not make him a murderer, and a murderer does not necessarily make one a liar.  When one falsely accuses anothers name and character, they not only lie, they murder, and murder in an even worse way, because the one who has been falsely accused must deal with these murdering lies for a long time, not just by being killed, no longer to exist.  But these lies, these murdering lies, hinder ones character and reputation for a long time, because we all know most love to hear gossip and most love to let these lies take seed in their minds.

How many of us, by the faith God has given us, have been the blunt of these kind of accusations?  And, these accusations have come from who?  Obviously, it's the ones who have not died to self, who have not realized who the son of perdition is.  It's the many, our older brothers, the ones, who by Gods plan have not the eyes to see.  They not only accuse us, while in our walk, but they accuse the character of God Himself.  To actually believe with their whole heart that God, the God who sent His only Son to pay for our sins, the One who showed that kind of love, which to us is easy to see, but they are still in their own carnal mind, still our brothers and sisters, who we are admonished to forgive, lie and murder.  Even themselves they think they do not, this is what must be burnt out of them, which has been already been burnt out of us.  This to me is the second death, and when they go through the fire, they will see as we do, because it is all through the grace of God, and nothing more, because we are, all of us, not worthy of it.

I am nothing, He is everything, God lives and His words shall not return void.  May the simple truth that is in Christ, who is everlasting life, reign within you.

God bless,

Gary


Hi Gary, just wondering then what is the first death??  Seems to me, what you described would be the first death, the law doing it's job; dying  in order for by grace through faith for life to be given.  

Overcomers are not to be hurt by the second death, but if the second death is good, to burn out the beast, wouldn't we want to be hurt by it??  

Pauls says he was alive once without the law, then the law came and he died.  Hebrews says appointed for man to once die, then judgemnt.  


?????  just questions, things i definitely don't have sorted out.
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orion77

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the second death?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2006, 11:30:32 PM »

(Rev 20:14)  And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

(Rev 20:15)  And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.

(Rev 21:6)  And He said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending. To the one thirsting, I will freely give of the fountain of the Water of Life.

(Rev 21:7)  The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me.

(Rev 21:8)  But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.


We must overcome being cowardly, overcome being unbelileving in the saving power of God, overcome being foul, which is idolaltry, overcome being a spiritual murderer, overcome being a spiritual whoremonger and one who spits out poison in the name of God, overcome being one of those who are false, wicked, deceitful and erroneous.  If not, then we shall take part in the Lake of Fire, no ifs ands or buts.  Yet this lake of fire is not what the majority present it to be, still be watchful.

God bless,

Gary
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rocky

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the second death?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2006, 11:35:42 PM »

Quote from: orion77
(Rev 20:14)  And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

(Rev 20:15)  And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.

(Rev 21:6)  And He said to me, It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending. To the one thirsting, I will freely give of the fountain of the Water of Life.

(Rev 21:7)  The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me.

(Rev 21:8)  But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.


We must overcome being cowardly, overcome being unbelileving in the saving power of God, overcome being foul, which is idolaltry, overcome being a spiritual murderer, overcome being a spiritual whoremonger and one who spits out poison in the name of God, overcome being one of those who are false, wicked, deceitful and erroneous.  If not, then we shall take part in the Lake of Fire, no ifs ands or buts.  Yet this lake of fire is not what the majority present it to be, still be watchful.

God bless,

Gary


we know that the lake of fire is the second death.  Those with their names in book of life won't be thrown into the lake of fire.  So how can overcomers go through second death/LOF????

I do believe what u are saying that the beast/carnal has to be destroyed, but in overcomers it seems to me it is not the second death, but  first death.
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orion77

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the second death?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2006, 11:41:04 PM »

The book of Life, is Jesus Christ.  If we are not found written in this book, then we are none of His.  He is us, and us in Him, and us in each other, the oneness of which He spoke of.  Forgiving them, who not know what they do.  We can only truly see this and apply it, when we die and are crucified with Christ.  We die, yet we will physically die again, but the ones who during their life have not been crucified with Christ, who physically die, will die again, being thrown into the Lake of Fire, albeit not as they think it to be, hence the weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Oh, what a glorious day that will be, when our older brothers and sisters, who falsely accused us and God, just in the story of Joseph and his elder brothers were reunited.  God is good, this life is hard, yet endure to see the end of our Maker and His plan.

God bless,

Gary
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rocky

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the second death?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2006, 11:44:08 PM »

Quote from: orion77
The book of Life, is Jesus Christ.  If we are not found written in this book, then we are none of His.  He is us, and us in Him, and us in each other, the oneness of which He spoke of.  Forgiving them, who not know what they do.  We can only truly see this and apply it, when we die and are crucified with Christ.  We die, yet we will physically die again, but the ones who during their life have not been crucified with Christ, who physically die, will die again, being thrown into the Lake of Fire, albeit not as they think it to be, hence the weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Oh, what a glorious day that will be, when our older brothers and sisters, who falsely accused us and God, just in the story of Joseph and his elder brothers were reunited.  God is good, this life is hard, yet endure to see the end of our Maker and His plan.

God bless,

Gary


 :D  :D  :D   Hear you loud and clear, just a semantics on my part.  Praise God for the cross, death/life.
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orion77

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the second death?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2006, 12:12:00 AM »

I hear ya, Rocky.

The truth, be told, if we are not being crucified during this life, then it will come at the second death.  Either way, we all will die to this self, which tries to substitute itself in Gods place.

Look at the prophets, look at Christ, look at the apostles, look at what has happened the last 2000 years, and mostly look at what happens to us.  Do we not suffer as they have?

What does it mean to be crucified?  Think about it.  We are murdered, and not just physically murdered, but spiritually murdered, by the father of lies and his followers.  And what do they do?  Are not they liars and murderers?  Yet, deceived into thinking they are doing Gods service.  Can we not see this?  

And, through Christ, we are commanded to forgive them, for they know not what they do.  It is hard to be judged by God, yet we all are, whether during this life or through the Lake of Fire.  There is no escaping it, yet orthodox christianity wants us to believe that we will escape the judgment of God, its amazing how God works.

God bless,

Gary
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