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Author Topic: kill the body and destroy the soul??  (Read 5428 times)

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darren

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kill the body and destroy the soul??
« on: August 17, 2009, 12:26:57 AM »

There's a scripture that goes (now this is not a direct quote) but it goes something like this. Fear Him that can kill the body and destroy the soul. Sorry if I mangled this scripture. I thought the word soul is just another word for person or body. Does anyone have any feelings on this subject??


                                          Darren
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mharrell08

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 12:34:36 AM »

There's a scripture that goes (now this is not a direct quote) but it goes something like this. Fear Him that can kill the body and destroy the soul. Sorry if I mangled this scripture. I thought the word soul is just another word for person or body. Does anyone have any feelings on this subject??


                                          Darren


Excerpt from Lake of Fire series #16-D3 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm):

MAYBE THE MOST ENIGMATIC SCRIPTURE IN ALL THE BIBLE

Jesus told His disciples in this sermon that if they called a brother "fool" they would be in danger of "Gehenna fire." What kind of danger is that. How does this Gehenna fire actually judge us. Is there anywhere that we are told how Gehenna judges us to make us "righteous?" There is a verse that specifically addresses what Gehenna accomplishes, but it is one of the least understood verses in all Scripture:

    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna fire]" (Matt. 10:28).

The biggest problem in understanding this verse, is to understand who this verse is talking about. The Church will tell you that it is talking about those who will suffer loss of salvation in the eternal fires of hell. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. This verse was addressed directly to and about the 12 apostles, and is applied to all Christ's disciples throughout all generations.

Go back to the first verse of chapter 10 for the contextual proof that Jesus is instructing his Apostles only in this teaching: "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them [no one else, just 'them,' just the twelve apostles], saying..." And Jesus continues speaking unbroken all the way to the eleventh chapter, to His twelve apostles only.

If it is the world of unrepentant sinners that are to "fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell," then why oh why didn't Jesus make this clear to His apostles in these verses? But no, Jesus warned His apostles that they are to be the ones fearing. Notice:

    "...He called unto Himself His twelve disciples... These twelve Jesus sent forth and commanded them saying... [Jesus continues speaking to His apostles only] ...And fear not them [their enemies and persecutors] which kill the body [their body; your body], but are not able to kill the soul [your soul]: but rather fear Him [you twelve apostles] which is able to destroy both soul and body [both YOUR soul and YOUR body] in hell [Gehenna fire]" (Matt. 10:1, 5, & 28).

Assuredly, Jesus was not warning the wicked to not fear the wicked who, when they kill the wicked cannot kill the soul... No, this instruction is for believers.

Gehenna is judgment. It is not torture in literal fire. It is judgment upon God's Elect to spiritually purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them strong. Gehenna speaks of judgment, and Jesus taught that God is "able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." How are we (God's Elect) presently being destroyed in both body and soul? Notice what Jesus said a few verses after He made this statement:

    "He that finds his life [Gk: 'psuche' - soul, not zoe which is life] shall lose it: and he that loses his life [soul] for My sake shall find it" (Matt. 10:39).

We must be spiritually baptized into Christ's death, and we must also LOSE OUR SOUL for Christ's sake.

Learn to read Scriptures accurately and precisely. Take note that Jesus did NOT say "And fear not them which KILL the body, but are not able to KILL the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to KILL both soul and body in hell [Gk: Gehenna]." No, Jesus did NOT say that, but it is assumed that He either said that or at least meant that. No, He did not. Jesus said: "And fear not them which KILL the body, but are not able to KILL the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [Gk: Gehenna]."


Why the switch? Jesus switches from "kill" to "destroy."

It is our "soul" that God is more interested in than our "life." An insane person may have a perfectly healthy life, but his soul is severely damaged. A comatose person may be in perfect physical health and be very much "alive," but possesses virtually no soul-conscious awareness, character, love, emotions, knowledge, hopes and dreams, memories, etc.

Now then, "destroy" in verse 28 is the Greek word 'appolumi' and it means: DESTROY, PARISH, LOSE. Wow! Are you seeing this? How much easier my job would be if only the translators had been consistent, but God didn't want them to be consistent. It's all part of the worldwide deception which is a necessary part of God's plan. In verse 18 Jesus says that God can "appolumi your body and soul." In verse 39 Jesus tells us that we must "appolumi our own soul." Either we 'appolumi' -destroy/lose our souls, or God will 'appolumi' our souls for us, and that is not the way we want to go, seeing that: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" (Heb. 10:31).

And notice this is precisely what we read in Matt. 5:29- "If your right eye offend you [then YOU] pluck it out... And if your right hand offend you [then YOU] cut it off... and not that your whole body should be cast [by GOD, 'fear HIM'] into Gehenna" (Matt. 5:28-30).

We must pluck out and cut off those members of the body which are used to sin against God:

    "Mortify therefore your members [Gk: 'melos' -'parts of the BODY' -Dr. Strong] which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God comes ['fear HIM'] on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the Image of Him that created him [it]" (Col. 3:5-10).

But hopefully by now, we all know that the different "members" of our body [pluck out your eye; cut off your hand; cut off your foot] do not actually sin, but it is the heart and carnal mind of man that uses the members of his body to commit sin: "Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin..." (Rom. 6:13).

So then God teaches us to "fear HIM" and in so doing, destroy [Gk: 'apollumi' -destroy, perish, lose] our soul by "plucking out and cutting off" these members of our body so as to stop using them as "instruments of unrighteousness unto sin" so that God will not have to "destroy both our body and our soul in Gehenna" by "CASTING us into Gehenna." Are you beginning to understand the judgment of "Gehenna fire" and how it works?



Hope this helps,

Marques
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jerreye

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 01:13:11 AM »

What a powerful letter that was from Ray! Couldn't get any clearer. I can't wait until my eyes and hands and feet and every other member of my carnal self is plucked out and cut off. May God give us the strength to do just that!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 01:15:24 AM by jerreye »
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MePogo

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 02:07:04 AM »



So then God teaches us to "fear HIM" and in so doing, destroy [Gk: 'apollumi' -destroy, perish, lose] our soul by "plucking out and cutting off" these members of our body so as to stop using them as "instruments of unrighteousness unto sin" so that God will not have to "destroy both our body and our soul in Gehenna" by "CASTING us into Gehenna." Are you beginning to understand the judgment of "Gehenna fire" and how it works? [/color]


Hope this helps,

Marques
[/quote]

I still have trouble with the "fear HIM" thing because I can't equate love and fear and I do believe God is Love. I can't love what I fear.  What I don't love is that part of my being capable of offending God; that which is sin.  Someone told me some time ago that when I see the word fear, replace it with awe.  It works for me and, with my incomplete knowledge and understanding, I can love God and detest the part of me (flesh) that offends Him.  I might have this all wrong, but I think of the fire as the ultimate cleanser....  and the flesh and the sin is gone, thrown into the fire.  What comes back is a purified soul, more worthy of the love that He gave me (us all).  I might have this all wrong, and won't be offended if I am corrected, but the words that sin and death are thrown into the fire are the words that brought clarity to the whole  "hell" issue.    If the fire consumes death and sin, then they are no more....not our spirit, which was cleansed by the sacrifice of Christ who made our rebirth in the spirit possible. 
If I haven't got this right, please correct me. 
 ;)

Love and blessings to all,
Pogo
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aqrinc

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 03:38:18 AM »


Hi Pogo,

Many times in The OT the word fear is used instead of a more appropiate word. Fear GOD is use over 300 times in The KJV; the majority should be other words like Revere, Reverence, Honor, Worship, Awe or other such expressions of Wonder and Love.

But there are also quite a few times when Fear is the appropiate word; see the thread below for some examples of different uses matching different Bible translations. This is not by any stretch authorative, but my effort to find Scripture that witnesses to many different uses of those words.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10234.0.html

Fear is a Good thing sometimes, as it makes us stop and count the cost before going ahead with some harebrained scheme or even something we think is worthwhile but may cause hurt or damage to others and ourselves.

george. :)





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9440geoff

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 07:30:06 AM »

Hi Darren,

I find the word 'soul' extremely difficult to describe, but Ray's teaching that Marques posted above is brilliant.

Quote
I thought the word soul is just another word for person or body.
It seems to me that 'soul' in the OT Hebrew nephesh (Strongs H5315) is often used to refer to a person or body, whereas in the NT Greek psuché (Strongs G5590) 'soul' often refers to something within us. I believe that our soul is a part of our consciousness very close to our spirit because Heb 4:12 says " For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."
CLV.

Geoff
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Marky Mark

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2009, 11:12:00 AM »

Just a little more added dimension[simplistic version] to what a soul is. Rays response to the soul question via email. Hope this helps some.  :)


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html

Dear Waylan:

    It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.

    God be with you,

    Ray



Waylan
You have to get out of out if your head the idea that the spirit soul and body are "separate entities" as if they could function independently of each other.  Remember my TV analogy of six years ago?  The console is the body, the picture is the soul, and the electricity is the spirit. Yes, they are "entities," if you will that have distinct names, and functions, but none of them produces anything independent of each other. Smash the console and you have not soul (picture). Pull the plug and you have not soul (picture). 
Likewise remove the spirit, and the body dies. Remove the spirit and the soul disappears. Smash the body and the soul disappears. The soul IS THE SENTIENT man. The emotional, thinking, conscious man. This consciousness is called "soul."  It is not a thing that can literally travel or go somewhere independent of the body and brain. That is why it is said in the Greek Scriptures that at death the soul goes to hades. Hades means the unseen, the emperceptible, unconsciousness.
It take spirit from God in a body to give it live, which life is then called "a LIVING SOUL."
It tkes a little meditation to understand these concepts.

God be with you,
Ray





Peace...Mark
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ez2u

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 10:52:07 AM »

One thing I would like to add here and not taking anything away from the ladies that study too, is this: this is the first time I have every seen such a large group of men
that are taking serious the Word of God.  Being active to bring forth and do some serious explanation.   It's very resonating in my soul.  Being a women and a feminist
( by that I mean i support women in their struggles ) I find this very refreshing and encouraging,  Thank you peggy
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lauriellen

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009, 12:53:26 AM »

please bare with me on this (i am a "newbie"), but i would really like to understand this scripture....
reading this thread, in particular, about fearing those who can "kill the body but can not kill the soul"
this is the part i am stuck on.  Ray says without a body, there is no soul, ...
so if they kill the body, they would "also" be killing the soul, wouldn't they? so why did he take the time to make a distinction about "killing the body and soul" as if they can be killed seperately?
can someone explain this for me? i am just not getting it.......sorry....
(i am blonde too, that doesn't help....lol)
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cjwood

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2009, 05:39:08 AM »

hi lauriellen,
actually, i don't think it can be answered any more plainly than ray did in the excerpt from his lake of fire series that marques (mharrell08) posted. eventhough you are blonde, you should be able to read through that excerpt, r---e---a---l---l---y   s----l----o----w----l----y  ;D, and get a clear understanding of what this scripture is talking about.

claudia
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lauriellen

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2009, 11:10:19 AM »

well, i read the entire thread again (twice), really s-l-o-w-l-y  ;), and i completely understand the last half about who can kill both body and soul, that makes sense, body and soul are one....i understand all about gehenna, ect....
BUT considering that Ray explained that there is absolutely NO SOUL without a body, i am still just not getting the first half of the scripture that it is POSSIBLE to kill the body but not the soul.  BUT, i will keep reading it until it makes sense.
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Kat

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 11:50:53 AM »


Hi Lauriellen,

I think these additional excerpts will help your understanding on this.

http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm ---------------------------

Look carefully at what Jesus really said in Matt. 10:28:

"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

Jesus said not to fear those who can "kill," but rather fear Him [Jesus Christ] who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna. The first part of the verse is man's operation, but the second part of the verse is God's. Men have no jurisdiction over the soul. All they can do is kill the body. But God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html ---------------------------

THE RELIGION OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES

I have said for many years that Christendom is a religion of contradictions and square circles. Do you think I jest?

Jesus Himself acknowledged that He believed the Truth of these statements in Ezekiel 18 when He taught:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28).

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point). Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can, Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians, believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can, Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians, believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal, ever be "destroyed?" Now let’s proceed to some more "technical stuff":

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: ‘adam, a human being’] of the dust [Heb: ‘aphar, powdered gray, hence clay’] of the ground [Heb: ‘adamah, soil’]

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: ‘n’shahmah, puff, wind’] of life [Heb: ‘chay, alive, life, living’] and man became [Heb: ‘hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass’] a living [Heb: ‘chay, alive, life, living’] soul [Heb: ‘nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality’]."

Well, there you have it: God’s abbreviated version of how He created humanity.
v
v
It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn’t put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it ‘on’ and the light glows: Switch it ‘off’ and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul.
v
v
God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body), the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can’t, so fear God.
---------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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lauriellen

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 06:04:24 PM »

i know this is an old thread, but i just wanted to let you know that after over a year of meditation (& reading really slowly  ;) ) today, something 'clicked' inside of me and i think i finally do truely understand this verse.  it was the following phrase that jumped out at me today:

"The first part of the verse is man's operation, but the second part of the verse is God's. Men have no jurisdiction over the soul. All they can do is kill the body. But God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

God is patient & very good. =)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: kill the body and destroy the soul??
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 07:09:56 PM »

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [BODY], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Psalm 146:4 "His breath [SPIRIT] goeth forth [BACK TO GOD], he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

SOUL = BODY + SPIRIT

Remove either one of these and the SOUL is DEAD! However if God if God returns the spirit back to the body then the SOUL is REVIVED.

Ezekiel Chapter 37 really shows this process well with Isreal being brought back to life but heres an excerpt.

Ez 37:5-14 "Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:"

  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD


I know this is an old thread, but i just felt like chiming in xD

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 07:12:07 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
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