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[lauriellen]

okay, i know i am going to really catch it on this post, but i just felt compelled to write it anyway......here goes....
not wanting to step on any toes, and not writing to anyone in particular, and i am also reminding myself as well.....there seems to be an underlying attitude creeping into some of the posts that really bothers me....a sort of distain or disgust, dislike, whatever you want to call it, for anyone who does not believe like we do....it is not out-and-out blatent (yet), just an underlying current, that i surely hope does not pick up momentum with time.....
i will forever have burned into my memory a family member (pentacostal) who took pride in saying every chance she got that "those ole baptists are all going to burn in hell"...and how it made me feel to hear her say it....
we need to remember that the same LOVING GOD who was merciful to us in opening our eyes, is the same LOVING GOD who has chosen to blind theirs...
it should humble us to realize this, and we should show compassion to those who are blind....we should love them just as Jesus did, when on the cross He asked God to forgive them because "they don't know what they are doing"...
yes, i know they don't like us, they DESPISE us as Ray always says, BUT, two wrongs don't make a right....when you catch a child hitting another child, and you ask them why, and they say, "well, he hit me first", does that make it okay?.......we are suppose to return good for bad......if we have the same attitude toward the world that they have toward us, we are no better than them.
1Co 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all KNOWLEDGE; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

lets all try to remember that it ISN'T us against them......if they are despising us, and persicuting us, it is because God has chosen for them to do so.....all we are called to do is be odedient to God, not to fight them back...

okay, you can let me have it now!
in love,
lauriellen

[lilitalienboi16]

Theirs a difference between not liking the people who are under strong delusion and not liking the doctrines and teachings that keep said people in that position.

I think you can figure out where i lye in all of this.

God bless,

Alex

[mharrell08]

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10292.0.html


Marques

[Marky Mark]

When we fall short in our lives, L-O-V-E will not, for Love never fails.  G-O-D is L-O-V-E.

Luk 6:27 But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you."

Mat 5:44 Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you,

Joh 15:9 According as the Father loves Me, I, also, love you. Remain in My love."

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,

Gal 5:22 Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Php 1:9 And this I am praying, that your love may be superabounding still more and more in realization and all sensibility,

Col 2:2 that their hearts may be consoled, being united in love, and to all the riches of the assurance of understanding, unto a realization of the secret of the God and Father, of Christ,

1Th 5:13 and to deem them exceedingly distinguished in love, because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves."

2Ti 2:22 Now youthful desires flee: yet pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with all who are invoking the Lord out of a clean heart."

Heb 6:10 For God is not unjust, to be forgetting your work and the love which you display for His name when you serve the saints, and are serving."

1Pe 2:17 Honor all; love the brotherhood; fear God; honor the king.





Peace...Mark

[meee]

Theirs a difference between not liking the people who are under strong delusion and not liking the doctrines and teachings that keep said people in that position.

I think you can figure out where i lye in all of this.

God bless,

Alex

Ditto!
Peace,God Bless,
meee

[9440geoff]

Hi Lauriellen,

I think Alex absolutely nailed it. It is heartbreaking to be in the company of people whom one loves, whether they be family or friends, and yet hate the doctrines they believe.

Geoff

[Ninny]

As most of you know I am a former Seventh Day Adventist..I have friends who still bash that church every chance they get..listen if it wasn't for what I learned there and everywhere else I've been I probably wouldn't be here right now..so even though I have no desire to return I will not be and I hope I have never cast any stones behind me..neither have I burned any bridges..I still have many dear friends in the church none of whom would I ever want to hurt or belittle. So if I have ever appeared to do that (and I'm not saying I'm innocent of it) ..or if I have done it please, please forgive me from the bottom of my heart..I would never want to offend anyone or cause anyone to stumble..
Kathy 

[gmik]

Of course Laurie is correct...we are to LOVE at all costs and never boast or think uppity of ourselves.

Sometimes we have to vent somewhere and some choose the forum.  We are human w/ frailties, faults and sin.  One of the sins is judging others and looking down cuz they don't believe like we do.

 But I try to not sin in ACTING badly toward others- I may rant to you guys, but to them I just try to accept- most of the time I don't even challenge their blaspheming.

We have been blessed BIG TIME, to have been dragged to BT.  We should stay humble about that.  It wasn't anything we did or didn't do....so we need to remember that for others.

Alex is right too, love the sinner, hate the sin.......but what does that look like in real life???

[deftarchangel]

Hi lauriellen,

I appreciate the sentiments of your post.  Like Ninny, I too was a member of the SDA’s for about five years (it was the first church I ever attended on my own), and so I understand that elitist attitude that you speak of all too well.  I don’t know if my experience was the same as Ninny’s, but for my duration with the SDA’s, I developed the attitude of looking down on “Sunday worshippers” in Christendom as morons who didn’t get it or who couldn’t read the Bible correctly.  It felt great to make jokes about how silly and foolish the rest of Christendom was for not understanding that the Sabbath day was indeed still in effect, and all the other stuff that they teach.  Boy, was I humbled when all that attitude was thrown back in my face and I was shown how wrong I was when I started reading the Bible on my own after I left them!  Unfortunately, that elitist attitude is not exclusive to the world of Christendom.  I think it’s just human nature. 

I think everyone likes to feel like they belong to somewhere or something exclusive and special, and part of the deal in a lot of cases is to look down upon those who aren’t a part of your special club.  And obviously something is only exclusive and special when there are a limited number of people involved in it.  I relate it to like being in high school.  Everyone had to belong to some group or fall under some category (at least that was the case when I went to school).  Whether you were a jock, a nerd, one of the “cool” people, or a part of the “in” crowd, a loner or just an outsider, or whatever, you had to belong somewhere.  And it was real easy (and routine) to make fun of those people who weren’t a part of your group.  I think that mentality continues on well into adulthood.  And it especially exists in Christendom, what with it’s many denominations. 

Like you, I am not a fan of the “us vs. them” mentality when it comes to fellow followers of Christ who may yet continue to go to church (especially after my experience with the SDA’s), because it brings up that problem that Paul described in 1 Cor. 1:12-13.  It’s so dangerous to fall into that trap of saying “well, I follow this person’s/group’s/website’s teachings and beliefs,” and then start criticizing the other groups because they are not a part of the same group or they seek truth somewhere else.  It’s easy to commit the same folly that people in Christendom do by sticking to one denomination or one set of teachings, and looking down on others who don’t follow suit.  I agree with Alex in that you can dislike and argue against a particular doctrine or teaching and not hold malice or disdain for the person who believes it.  But then again, when emotions get involved, it’s sometimes hard to maintain that position.  For example, I can disagree and have disdain for the beliefs that white supremacists have, and claim that those feelings don’t extend to the white supremacists themselves.  But if some Nazi skinhead comes up to me, starts doing the Hitler salute, and starts spewing his/her racist beliefs, that’s when the rubber meets the road, and we see if I can still maintain that loving attitude (I probably couldn’t, to be honest!).  So it is very easy to cross that boundary, and no doubt all of us have been guilty of crossing that boundary at one time or another. 

If I can add to what lauriellen is trying to get across, we’re all searching for the truth, just like some people in churches are doing, just like some people in different religions are doing.  I don’t believe any one person on the earth presently has been blessed with the complete grasp of all of God’s truth.  While some may have been blessed with fragments of truth, blessed with the eyes to see and the ears to hear, as gmik pointed out, those that have certainly didn’t deserve it, and should act accordingly (and some indeed do).  As it says in Eph. 2:1-5:

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.  All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.  But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.”

Anyways, that’s my two cents worth.  Thanks for the reminder lauriellen.

 

[tamaralv]

John 8:7Let he who is without sin cast the first stone at her.

 I know that's what we are instructed to do, but boy is it hard, especially when that's the attitude most of us had while still in Babylon.  I was in the habit of watching an early morning ministry program and would pick out all the contradictory things the preacher would say.  What I found was that the more I found wrong with what he was teaching, the more distain I felt for him.  I do not agree with what the man was saying, but I really had to reexamine my motives for watching and what I found was that I was beginning to enjoy finding fault with that man.  I don't believe Jesus had that kind of heart and I don't want it either.  I can still be discerning of the message, but I remind myself that I once was where that man is and since I don't know what God is doing with him in his life, I don't have the right to judge him or anyone else.  I pray daily for the ability not to judge. 

Hope this helps,

Tammy

[Terry]

Well said Tammy

Terry

[G. Driggs]

Excerpt from "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"
Meet the Real Jesus Many Hate http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

It is possible to condemn the sinful actions and teachings of men without hating the men who commit these things. Jesus loved everyone. Jesus died for everyone. Jesus forgave everyone. Jesus forgave those who crucified Him before He expired and probably thousands of years before most of them will repent in judgment. As I have said many times, except for the grace of God, everyone of us could have been any of the world’s most evil people. We are saved in God’s grace, not by our cleverness in choosing to follow and obey God. Grace CAUSES us to obey God. The carnal mind CAUSES men to disobey God. It is that simple.

And so we expose, exhort, teach, challenge, forgive, and LOVE. That these can take the form of sarcasm, exaggeration, satire, irony, anger, and LOVE, are clearly demonstrated by the examples of our Lord.

Now then, let’s see some examples of "upbraiding" used by our Lord in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God: After the High Priest asked Jesus about His disciples and teachings, Jesus said:

    "‘Why are you asking Me this question? Ask those who heard me. You have some of them here. They know what I said.’ One of the soldiers standing there struck Jesus WITH HIS FIST. ‘Is THAT THE WAY to answer the High Priest?’ he demanded" (John 18:21-22, The Living Bible).

One of the guards felt Jesus was so contemptuous and out of line, that he slapped Jesus in the mouth with the palm of his hand and told Him to WATCH HIS MOUTH when speaking to the High Priest! The guard was letting Jesus know in no uncertain terms that one does not speak to such a dignified person as the High Priest with such a demeaning tone of voice!

What would you think if someone were to address the Pope with this same tone of voice as Jesus used on the High Priest? Would you too think that someone ought to slap such a person’s face for talking that way to the Pope? Well? Was our Lord too smart for His britches? Was His language and tone of voice to be condemned by a punch in the mouth? But woe be unto the servant of Jesus Christ who today would suggest that, "…because as He [Jesus] is, so are WE in this world" (I John 4:17).

Jesus told the truth. Jesus called a spade a spade. And many people thought He was a contemptuous smart aleck! He was not. It was the Truth of His words that cut them; not just the tone of His voice. However, the tone of His voice and the selection of words and analogies that He used were not only highly offensive to those to whom He spoke, but are likewise offensive to people hearing this same approach used today by God’s servants. It is unscriptural foolishness to retort that, "Well, YOU ARE NOT Jesus!" Oh really? And what happened to,

    "…because AS He [Jesus] is, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17),

and

    "Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5)?


Jesus was much harsher than most of what I have seen here on this forum, so I think it all boils down to ones intentions and motivations for "bashing babylon". I believe if you are of the Elect then God will show you your intentions and motivations, whether they be good or evil.

Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

[Marky Mark]

Words that all of us must adhere to...


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html


Remember always as we attempt to enlighten those whom God is calling, that we are NO BETTER than those whose doctrines we condemn. God loves and DIED for these heretics of the modern Church. They are precious to God—and they had better be PRECIOUS TO US, or we too will receive a great condemnation for feeling anything but LOVE TOWARD THEM! They may be, in fact, our enemies, but Christ instructs us to: "…LOVE YOUR ENEMIES"!!




Peace...Mark

[daywalker]

 I don't have the right to judge him or anyone else.  I pray daily for the ability not to judge. 

Hope this helps,

Tammy

It's okay to judge, in fact Paul instructs us to. [I Cor 6:2-3] BUT the question is, as you alluded to-->what's your motive? What's your intentions when you judge someone? As Ray says in one of his audios [paraphrasing for time's sake]:

If you are judging out of love, like a loving parent does for his/her child, for the sake of teaching and correcting, not for sheer punishment, then I would want that kind of judgment.

If you are judging with mercy, and your goal is edifying the person you are judging, then you are judging righteously. But if you are judging with evil intentions, out of self-righteousness and pride, with the intention of lifting yourself up over the person you are condemning, then 'look out'  :

Matthew 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

I've been focusing on this topic in my mind over the past few days, and I think it's finally starting to set in. For awhile I didn't really get it; but now I think I am starting to get it...


Anyway, Have a Good One.

Daywalker 

[jeetkunejimi]

No one is perfect not even the called out chosen elect. We live,we learn, we die, we learn, we are ressurected we learn, we're made immortal, we're all still learning. What will be, will be. We are merely players in a very large stage production, learn your lines stand on the 'X', and if you get an Oscar, don't for get to give the glory to the Director.

[judith collier]

Lauriellen, when I first came here I noticed that right away and got into some squabbles with others because I went to a lot of churches and really liked them all. I was never much for doctrine but rather focused on the Lord Jesus. But I seem to know truth when I see it or maybe I just know my master's voice. Anyway, found a lot to like here, Ray's scripts are fantastic.
You probably will have to overlook some things here just like you do anywhere and after being here for awhile you will notice how well they take criticism. These people will "fess" up to their sins, believe me. Some have suffered much from churches and ministers but I know they would even help them if it came to that. They and myself just need to blow off some steam at times, they would never say anything outside of this particular forum.
Some have been set so free by Ray's teachings that they might get carried away now and then. Love, Judy.

[Roy Martin]

Well said Judy.

Roy

[MePogo]

After first reading the truths and knowing them, I was angry at anyone who was blind to them.  I enjoyed debating and arguing and quoting Ray and scripture to back my new-found knowledge.  I was obnoxious about it.  I set out to change everyone I knew.  But pride comes before the fall.  I really know more now but now look on it as a blessing given me and not something of my own doing.  I didn't earn this blessing; it was a gift.  I am called on to love all and grow and mature in Christ.  The blessing came with a price but doesn't make me better or more worthy than anyone else.  Now, I have to remind myself that there, but for the Grace of God, go I.  Wow, how my Father can smack me in the head to remind me how far I have to go.  I have such battles yet to win, so many words left to read, so much to learn.  Who am I to look down on anyone?  I'm simply blessed beyond measure to have been given the truth and to recognize it.  All credit to God.  If I were given what I deserve, I would be living in darkness, fearing hell and wishing I were never born.  Praise God!

Love to all,
Pogo

[daywalker]

After first reading the truths and knowing them, I was angry at anyone who was blind to them.  I enjoyed debating and arguing and quoting Ray and scripture to back my new-found knowledge.  I was obnoxious about it.  I set out to change everyone I knew.  But pride comes before the fall.  I really know more now but now look on it as a blessing given me and not something of my own doing.  I didn't earn this blessing; it was a gift.  I am called on to love all and grow and mature in Christ.  The blessing came with a price but doesn't make me better or more worthy than anyone else.  Now, I have to remind myself that there, but for the Grace of God, go I.  Wow, how my Father can smack me in the head to remind me how far I have to go.  I have such battles yet to win, so many words left to read, so much to learn.  Who am I to look down on anyone?  I'm simply blessed beyond measure to have been given the truth and to recognize it.  All credit to God.  If I were given what I deserve, I would be living in darkness, fearing hell and wishing I were never born.  Praise God!

Love to all,
Pogo

Excellent post, Pogo!

Rev 2:5 Remember, then, whence you have fallen, and repent, and do the former acts. Yet if not, I am coming to you, and shall be moving your lampstand out of its place, if ever you should not be repenting."

This Scripture has become 'burned' into my mind...  if you know what I mean 


Daywalker

[9440geoff]

Thanks for that Pogo,

You have expressed in words what is in my head, but cannot manage to put in writing the way that you do.

Geoff