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[nja]

Hello; I just registered and introduced myself on the corresponding section.
After re-reading the LOF (which is being such a blessing) I found something that I don't quite come to understand.

1) In installment 4, page 14 we read
 
 is also noteworthy that it is "…IN Christ ALL…" and is not restricted to only, "…ALL IN CHRIST…" as many have tried to twist this verse to mean. They say it is only all those who are "in" Christ. But that is not what this verse says. It says "in Christ ALL." That is the order of words. This verse is not speaking of those just the "all believers" who are said to be "IN Christ." No, this verse is speaking about the very same "in Adam ALL" who die become the very same "in Christ ALL" who are made alive. And although this particular verse does not say that "all" are now "IN Christ," it does most definitely say that "in Christ," the "ALL" shall be shall be "made alive." "Made alive" does not prove they are "in" Christ or that they are "saved," only that they have been given immortal life. Then comes JUDGMENT. But don’t think that therefore there is no Scripture that says they will eventually "ALL" be "IN" Christ, because there is:
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL [‘things’ is not in original] IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even IN HIM" (Eph. 1:10).

Christ first raises ALL to immortal life. At a later date He gathers this same ALL into Himself. The "in Christ ALL" (I Cor. 15:22) then becomes the "ALL IN CHRIST" (Eph. 1:10). Every creature in heaven and earth will be ONE IN Christ! I hope you can believe that.

(underlining mine)
 
 
2) In the following teaching by Ray
PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
« on: June 14, 2008, 01:40:06 PM »
 
we read
 
1Co 15:50  “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and incorruptible.”
 

Notice that ONLY “we”  [God’s Elect], not “they,”  “…shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not “they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.


The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.”   And this happens at a specific time:
 

(underlining mine)

3) Along the same line we read In installment 1, pag 18
 

"The dead, small and great" are mortals resurrected to judgment and are still mortal. Therefore physical fire will BURN THEM UP, hence there can be NO torture or torment for ever and ever.

 (underlining mine)

 
I don't know, it seems to me that there is an obvious inconsistency here between 1) and 2)-3). First we are told that 1 Cor 15 talks about everyone being given inmortality by Christ. Then we are told that 1 Cor 15 talks only about the chosen being given inmortality.  Obviously we can't have it both ways. 

I believe that in the end Chirst will redeem us all, but the point is that, according to 1)  inmortality does not necessarily imply being saved (and judgment comes after inmortality has been granted); however according to  2) and 3) just the opposite seems to be stated.

 I have been struggling with this for some days but I have not come up with a satisfactory solution  . I would appreciate if you can give me some light on this.
Thank you. 

 

 

 

 

[Kat]

Hi nja,

Only Ray can answer this type of question.  You should send off an email to him, here is his email address L.RaySmith@comcast.net
Do share the answer with us, you have stirred up my curiosity on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Craig]

Here is Ray's response.

Craig

Dear Craig:  This is what sometimes happened in my early writings when I did not have even

one person to properly proof read my material.  I will make one correction in my quotations

below that should solve the problem.............

After re-reading the LOF (which is being such a blessing) I found
something that I don't quite come to understand.

*1)* In installment 4, page 14 we read

is also noteworthy that it is "…IN Christ ALL…" and is not restricted to
only, "…ALL IN CHRIST…" as many have tried to twist this verse to mean.
They say it is only all those who are "in" Christ. But that is not what
this verse says. It says "in Christ ALL." That is the order of words.
This verse is not speaking of those just the "all believers" who are
said to be "IN Christ." No, this verse is speaking about the very same
"in Adam ALL" who die become the very same "in Christ ALL" who are made
alive. And although this particular verse does not say that "all" are
now "IN Christ," it does most definitely say that "in Christ," the "ALL"
shall be shall be "made alive." "Made alive" does not prove they are
"in" Christ or that they are "saved," only that they have been given
immortal life. Then comes JUDGMENT. But don’t think that therefore there
is no Scripture that says they will eventually "ALL" be "IN" Christ,
because there is:
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather
together in one ALL [‘things’ is not in original] IN Christ, both which
are in heaven, and which are on earth, even IN HIM" (Eph. 1:10).

 

COMMENT: I don't believe there is a problem so far to this point, is there?

Christ first raises ALL to immortal life.

 

COMMENT:  This is a typo!  It should read: "Christ first raises ALL [that is the

same "ALL" that are still spiritually dead in Adam] to mortal life."  There judgment

is in the flesh just as our's is now in the flesh.

 

 At a later date He gathers
this same ALL into Himself.

 

COMMENT:  Yes, AFTER their judgment, these "in Christ ALL" becomes "ALL in Christ."

 

 The "in Christ ALL" (I Cor. 15:22) then
becomes the "ALL IN CHRIST" (Eph. 1:10). Every creature in heaven and
earth will be ONE IN Christ! I hope you can believe that.

(underlining mine)

 

COMMENT:  No underlining came through.


*2)* In the following teaching by Ray
PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
« on: June 14, 2008, 01:40:06 PM »

we read

1Co 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and
incorruptible.”


Notice that ONLY “we” [God’s Elect], not “they,” “…shall bear the image
of the heavenly.” Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the
heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not
“they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake
of Fire.


The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne
the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.”
And this happens at a specific time:

 

COMMENT:  Yes, this statement is now in line with the other statements above.


(underlining mine)

*3)* Along the same line we read In installment 1, pag 18


"The dead, small and great" are mortals

 

COMMENT: Yes, that is what I teach and that is what all of this material shows (with the

exception of my one word typo "immortal" instead of "mortal."

 

 resurrected to judgment and are
still mortal. Therefore physical fire will BURN THEM UP, hence there can
be NO torture or torment for ever and ever.

 

COMMENT:  I do not mean to say here that the lake of fire IS literal and WILL literally

burn them up.  The proposition is that IF the fire is physical and literal and IF these

people are raised physically and mortally, then indeed they would BURN UP.  It would

have been clearer had I stated:  "Therefore physical fire would BURN THEM UP, hence

there can be NO torture or torment for ever and ever."

 

But I have already stated here that they are "mortal" but that the fire is "spiritual/figurative."

And if they were resurrected to immortal life, then physical fire would not harm anything spiritual.

 

Hope this clears it up for you.  If not, restate your questions again.

God be with you,

Ray



(underlining mine)


I don't know, it seems to me that there is an obvious inconsistency here
between 1) and 2)-3). First we are told that 1 Cor 15 talks about
everyone being given inmortality by Christ. Then we are told that 1 Cor
15 talks only about the chosen being given inmortality. Obviously we
can't have it both ways.

I believe that in the end Chirst will redeem us all, but the point is
that, according to 1) inmortality does not necessarily imply being saved
(and judgment comes after inmortality has been granted); however
according to 2) and 3) just the opposite seems to be stated.

I have been struggling with this for some days but I have not come up
with a satisfactory solution Undecided. I would appreciate if you can
give me some light on this.
Thank you.

[Craig]

NJA thanks for bringing that to attention.  I've read it a few times and it never registered.

To all members, if you see a problem in a writing of Ray's then don't be afraid to ask here.  Ray won't be with us forever and years down the road when his writings are scrutinized he won't be able to respond or fix these, and then others will be left to surmise what they think he meant. 

And then when it is translated into another language and then another, before you know it Ray's writings will be right in line with the hell doctrine

Craig

[Marky Mark]

Just as Ray stated.
Email to Ray.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4010.0.html


Dear Dale:

Yes, you are close. "The "dead" are being judged because they are those who were dead, and also, even though resurrected to life, they are still spiritually dead, and that is the purpose for the judgment in fire--to bring them to spiritual life.

God be with you,

Ray

[nja]

Thanks for your answers. I see,  I suppose that the sentence

"   "made alive " does not prove they are in Christ or that they are saved, only that they have been given inmortal life  "
in installment IV is what got me confused.

Perhaps its meaning is conveyed more clearly if it is written like this

"  shall all be "made alive" does not prove that they [all] are [NOW] in Christ or that they [all] are saved [NOW], only that they [all] [will eventually] have inmortal life "

I think this is the idea, isn`t it?
Thank you again.
 

[Kat]

Hi Nja,

In Ray's reply here is what he states.

Christ first raises ALL to immortal life.

COMMENT:  This is a typo!  It should read: "Christ first raises ALL [that is the

same "ALL" that are still spiritually dead in Adam] to mortal life."  There judgment

is in the flesh just as our's is now in the flesh.

Here is the statement from the article.

And although this particular verse does not say that "all" are
now "IN Christ," it does most definitely say that "in Christ," the "ALL"
shall be shall be "made alive." "Made alive" does not prove they are
"in" Christ or that they are "saved," only that they have been given
immortal mortal life.

So you see Ray states that, this particular verse does not say that "all" are
now "IN Christ,"
Here is the verse.

1Co 15:21-22: "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For AS in Adam ALL die, EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

I think what Ray is saying is "all" are "made alive," but not all are made alive spiritually in Christ.  Most will be "made alive" only to a mortal/physical life.  He then goes on to say for those only made alive to a mortal/physical life.  Then comes JUDGMENT.

I hope that was helpful and don't get you more confused.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks for your answers. I see,  I suppose that the sentence

"   "made alive " does not prove they are in Christ or that they are saved, only that they have been given inmortal life  "
in installment IV is what got me confused.

Perhaps its meaning is conveyed more clearly if it is written like this

"  shall all be "made alive" does not prove that they [all] are [NOW] in Christ or that they [all] are saved [NOW], only that they [all] [will eventually] have inmortal life "

I think this is the idea, isn`t it?
Thank you again.
 

Correcting the typo will make the statement read thusly:

"made alive " does not prove they are in Christ or that they are saved, only that they have been given mortal life

Make the correction in your copy (as I hope the appropriate people are in the original) and rest a bit.  There's no contradiction and no need for confusion.

It's great to encounter someone who's 'searching' eyes are so keen.  Welcome to the forum. 

[lilitalienboi16]

NJA thanks for bringing that to attention.  I've read it a few times and it never registered.

To all members, if you see a problem in a writing of Ray's then don't be afraid to ask here.  Ray won't be with us forever and years down the road when his writings are scrutinized he won't be able to respond or fix these, and then others will be left to surmise what they think he meant. 

And then when it is translated into another language and then another, before you know it Ray's writings will be right in line with the hell doctrine

Craig

ROFLMAO!!! LOL CRAIG, YOU REALLY MADE ME LAUGH OUT LOUD!

[Akira329]

Good Catch nja!!
Welcome to the forum!

Antaiwan

[nja]

Thank you all for your remarks

Correcting the typo will make the statement read thusly:

"made alive " does not prove they are in Christ or that they are saved, only that they have been given mortal life

Make the correction in your copy (as I hope the appropriate people are in the original) and rest a bit.  There's no contradiction and no need for confusion.

I am not so sure this settles it because a few lines above the "controversial" sentence we are clearly told that the greek word for making alive(zoopoieo) includes inmortality (correcting the typo here would be like saying "inmortality brings mortality").
 As I see it being inmortal, being made alive, being in Christ and being saved are all the same thing. Eventually every human being will be brought to this state. The point is that some will be made alive before others. I would say this is the sense of the sentence which coincides with

Just as Ray stated.
Email to Ray.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4010.0.html


Dear Dale:

Yes, you are close. "The "dead" are being judged because they are those who were dead, and also, even though resurrected to life, they are still spiritually dead, and that is the purpose for the judgment in fire--to bring them to spiritual life.

God be with you,

Ray

However, correcting the typo in the sentence "Christ first raises ALL [that is the same "ALL" that are still spiritually dead in Adam] to mortal life", as Ray suggested, makes perfect sense.

The (spiritually) dead are raised to life, not made alive (they will, though, after judgment).
 

[9440geoff]

Hi nja,

I am not so sure this settles it because a few lines above the "controversial" sentence we are clearly told that the greek word for making alive(zoopoieo) includes inmortality (correcting the typo here would be like saying "inmortality brings mortality").

I'm not an expert on the Greek language but I get the feeling that "mortality brings immortality" is the correct sense here. We know that Jesus is going to save ALL the world and that it is a process. Note that when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead and brought him back to his previous state, i.e. normal life, the word used was G450 anistemi, by Jesus, and G1453 egeiro, afterwards by John, and not G2227 zoopoieo.

Geoff
 

[Akira329]

Hey nja,
If what has been shown so far doesn't satisfy, you should email Ray yourself.

Antaiwan

[Extol]

NJA thanks for bringing that to attention.  I've read it a few times and it never registered.

To all members, if you see a problem in a writing of Ray's then don't be afraid to ask here.  Ray won't be with us forever and years down the road when his writings are scrutinized he won't be able to respond or fix these, and then others will be left to surmise what they think he meant. 

And then when it is translated into another language and then another, before you know it Ray's writings will be right in line with the hell doctrine

Craig

ROFLMAO!!! LOL CRAIG, YOU REALLY MADE ME LAUGH OUT LOUD!

LOL you made me laugh out loud, Alex.