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A seemingly stupid question
9440geoff:
This is Strongs description of the Greek for our word "for":
G5228
ὑπέρ
huper
hoop-er'
A primary preposition; “over”, that is, (with the genitive case) of place, above, beyond, across, or causal, for the sake of, instead, regarding; with the accusative case superior to, more than. In compounds it retains many of the listed applications: - (+ exceeding abundantly) above, in (on) behalf of, beyond, by, + very chiefest, concerning, exceeding (above, -ly), for, + very highly, more (than), of, over, on the part of, for sake of, in stead, than, to (-ward), very. In compounds it retains many of the above applications.
We can see from this description that perhaps our word "for" does not have the same force as the Greek.
Akira329:
--- Quote from: wonderment on September 14, 2009, 11:42:40 AM ---Wow, thanks for all of these replies- I was not expecting this to be such a popular post. It seems to me that a lot of people are in the same position as I am with not truly understanding why He died the way he did "for us".
These have all been really good replies though... I just saw a video on YouTube where a Calvinist was debating an Armenian and I guess Calvinists believe that God only died for the elect (correct me if I'm wrong). They would say just because he died for the sins of the whole world doesn't mean he died for everyone's sins... um, what? So basically I understand that Jesus lived the way he did and died the way he did to set an example of how to live... even up to death. Jesus didn't only live and die this way for the elect though? My only remaining question is how come it says "FOR" our sins? I understand Jesus died because of OUR sins, since he did not have any, and it was the sins of men that put him on the cross... but please bare with me, can someone please try (one more time?) to explain to me why it says he died FOR our sins?
Thanks
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and responses
--- End quote ---
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father
It was also the will of God that this be done.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation - appeasing sacrifice, atoning sacrifice
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Also a good read for you would be the Lake of Fire series!!!
I really suggest you read it!!!
Start here: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
Hope this helps
Antaiwan
yudonsay:
Thanks for the greetings it is nice to be here.
There are some patient people on this forum so I will say it -- none of your explanations really helped. Do not reply for my sake, this kind of thing has happenend before with concepts far more challenging, things I have no issue with understanding give friends and family cause to question both my heads. I am either not seeing the forest because of all the trees in the way or am working to hard to see something that is far more simple ? ? ? Whatever, it'll come to me. It just takes time.
Akira329: My thoughts are like this, Jesus' death/sacrifice is what ultimately saves us all regardless when (how and why ??). Following a path of moral excellence cannot save you if you are not both called and chosen (most churches actually teach this literally). Unless you are called and chosen following any prescribed methodology can only give us temporal gain at best. Anything other than this would mean that all religions would have basis and value to actually find God and acquire salvation through our hard work of carefully following a morally correct, Godly life. The classic saved by works doctrine is based on similar ideas.
I am not asking how or why he is the perfect sacrifice but how or why any sacrifice at all is required, how can my life be spared because he died what is he accepting that should be on me. As I understand it all will go through judgement and none are spared this. All must be taught to believe and obey and acquire righteousness through the same, even Jesus did this. So this sacrifice does/did what? I read the scriptures a thousand times and still am wondering. I can see a sacrifice, correct me if I am off, as God's son now leaving his estate safe and secure as he should be to become human and showing us a path/way/life of gentleness and wisdom following this even when extreme discomfort and a shortened life were threatened especially for not doing anything wrong. This by any standards would be a sacrifice. If this is it then tell me, if I am missing something tell me.
Wonderment: I feel for you bud, I am still there. Don't stop asking and seeking.
Kat:
Hi Yudonsay,
Col 1:21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
v. 22 He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before Him,
Human beings have absolutely no means to be reconciled to God, there is simply nothing that we can do in this retched state (carnal fleshly human) that will qualify us, that we can earn or deserve salvation, which will bring us into the God family. God designed this plan to be this way, where we must have a Savior, Jesus Christ. It's all by design, the state we are in, and the need for a Messiah.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
His sacrifice is what reconciles us to God, pays the penalty, when He is ready to bring us to salvation, a few now, most later. But we all are still held accountable and must be judged for the sins we have committed either now or later.
Here is an excerpt that may help with this.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm ------------------------
"For our God IS A CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
That Spiritual Fire of God is DEATH to the carnal, rebellious, sinful, wicked, unbelieving heart and mind of man. God is able to purify all people. All who enter the Spiritual Fire of God will truly emerge clean and godly and SAVED. Four things will happen first:
"…and they were [1] judged [2] every man according to their [3] works… into the lake of [4] fire…" (Rev. 20:13-14).
"…and the [1] fire shall [2] try [test or judge] [3] every man’s [4] work…"(I Cor. 3:13).
The exact same four things occur in the fire of Rev. 20 as occur in the fire of I Cor. 3. But only I Cor. 3:15 tells us the marvelous outcome of God’s fiery judgment of every man’s work:
"If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE"!
There is the Scriptural destiny and outcome of Devine Spiritual Judgment—"SALVATION OF EVERY MAN." To be sure, "…Christ DIED for our sins" and "…and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I Cor. 15:3 & I John 2:2), and so the penalty for all sin for all time has been paid in full. However… HOWEVER, paying the penalty for sin does NOT take the sin out of the sinner, it only pays the penalty. JUDGMENT is what takes the sin out of the sinner, and:
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the HOUSE OF GOD…" (I Pet. 4:17).
And contrary to orthodox Christianity, there are two great periods of judgment. The first is with ‘the House of God,’ and the second is in the final judgment of the rest of humanity in the Great White Throne Judgment. Here are the options according to Paul:
"For if we would [1] judge ourselves, we should not [2] be judged. But when we are [1] judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not [2] be condemned [judged adversely] with the world [in the Great White Throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).
Both judgments will bring salvation, but the latter is far more severe.
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Hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Akira329:
Thanks Kat was looking for that! ;D
Antaiwan
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