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[EKnight]

A couple of days ago there was an article in out local paper.  It was about these small christian churches that offer help with "getting out of debt, saving and giving".  It's based on Dave Ramsey's techniques and Dave offers courses to become certified in advising people.  Anyway a couple of churches in this area offer these programs and one of the Pastor's was quoted saying that money is rarely mentioned at the pulpit and Jesus spoke of money more times than He spoke of Heaven and hell combined.  Oh  really?

I went to bible gateway and put the word Money in and it appeared in the whole bible 114 times (NIV) 125 times (KJV).  And Jesus actually only spoke of money about four of those times (I didn't really count just went by the red on Esword).

If I did this correctly, and I am just a nobody who does not teach nor preach, and I could get this information, how could a pastor/theologian be so mistaken?  Blinded you say?  I don't think so, blindness to me is not seeing the truth when you read it.  This is just blatant ignorance.  Idk, I think people get so wrapped up in dogma that they don't even know what came out of the bible and what came from man.

Anyway, could someone check this word money in the bible for me and let me know if my numbers are correct.  I am considering writing to either the paper or the pastor and show him the error.

Eileen

[Marky Mark]

Hello Eileen .

I got this off of Strong's Concordance.Hope this helps.

Versions and number of times in each version.

Money

NKJV(132)   NLT(197)
NIV(112)   ESV(122)
NASB(131)   RSV(124)
ASV(124)   YNG(107)
DBY(128)   WEB(125)
HNV(126)    KJV(140)


Peace...Mark

[Dave in Tenn]

Be careful, Eileen.  Some preachers equate 'talents' with money and make other stretches.  Some of the references to 'money' in the Gospels this way would be in the context of parables.  You already know that they often only see the Carnal in these parables, and not Spiritually.  I think that's especially true when the subject is money and Hell.

Do what you feel led to do.  Just a heads up from me that a simple search of the term 'Money' is probably not sufficient to counter that claim. 

[Marky Mark]

Well said Dave...

[Roy Coates]

some around hear were also pushing Ransey's program. Ramsey's makes some good points that can be had for free on the internet, quicken and Microsoft money. I asked "If it is biblical then why does he charge 90 bucks?" "For production cost's of coarse" "Bull" I replied. Materialism is what drives Ramsey's program. Nothing wrong with being penny wise, put pepole are paying him(he gets rich) so that they can get rich(envy) it all stunk when it was pushed at my local church(i left) not one person that I know reported financial gain or financial security from that program. I do know that scripture says "The love ofMoney is the root of all evil" I take that to heart. I think the pulpits push so ignorantly cause if the congregation makes more money then the church will make more money. Falls in line with their tithing guilt and greed methods. As for your technical question, looks like Mark covered that. I just had to rant. And I know I am preaching to the choir. Peace Thanks George

[Marky Mark]

some around hear were also pushing Ransey's program. Ramsey's makes some good points that can be had for free on the internet, quicken and Microsoft money. I asked "If it is biblical then why does he charge 90 bucks?" "For production cost's of coarse" "Bull" I replied. Materialism is what drives Ramsey's program. Nothing wrong with being penny wise, put pepole are paying him(he gets rich) so that they can get rich(envy) it all stunk when it was pushed at my local church(i left) not one person that I know reported financial gain or financial security from that program. I do know that scripture says "Money is the root of all evil" I take that to heart. I think the pulpits push so ignorantly cause if the congregation makes more money then the church will make more money. Falls in line with their tithing guilt and greed methods. As for your technical question, looks like Mark covered that. I just had to rant. And I know I am preaching to the choir. Peace

  Roy,I think Ray covers all bases here


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3162.0.html 

Dear Reader In Kentucky:
    There is not one single Scripture in the entirety of the Bible that commands, suggests, or hints that anyone should be giving these two-faced, lying, deceiving, hypocritical, widow robbing, worldly, materialistic, social climbing, vain, egotistical, morally bankrupt heretics,  blasphemers, false prophets, scam artists, and religious charlatans, a single penny in the name of firstfruits, secondfruits, or any other kind of seed offering or money making scam! These flim-flam, carnivall barking, extortionists will all be "cast in prison" in Judgment and will not come out until they "...have paid [back] the UTTERMOST farthing [of fraudulent and extorted money]"  (Matt. 5:26).
     
    So the answer is, "No, it's not Scriptural."
     
    God be with you
    Ray



Peace...Mark

[EKnight]

Yes Dave, that thought (talents=money) occurred to me too.  But then quote the bible correctly pastor and let the reader decide if the two are the same thing.  And yes, most of the time its in parable form.  But even using the word talents and money, how many times does Jesus use the terms in a positive light? and does Jesus really mention it more times than that of heaven or hell (kingdom of God/hades)? 

Eileen

[Dave in Tenn]

"...and does Jesus really mention it more times than that of heaven or hell (kingdom of God/hades)?"

I don't know.  You asked for info to put to them.  Ray has done a lot of work already in the whole 'how many times Jesus talked about Hell over Heaven' debacle in the letters to either Hagee or the other preacher (whose name I can never remember).

I should think a read through of the Gospels Red-Letter sections with a 'liberal' interpretation of whether or not He is speaking about money should give you 'numbers' to compare.  It shouldn't take all that long, if you want to do it.

Just advise, even if it's no help. 

 

[Roy Coates]

Ray has said " If fundemental/orthodox Christianity teaches it, it is not true" paraphrased of coarse but I am really taking a hard look at things with this in mind. The more I look and learn the more I discover it to be true. Off the top I say false. More study is needed to say for sure.

[daywalker]

If I did this correctly, and I am just a nobody who does not teach nor preach, and I could get this information, how could a pastor/theologian be so mistaken? 

Eileen

How can pastors/theologians teach that there's a [singular] place called Hell, when it's translated from 4 [plural] words?

How can pastors/theologians teach that Satan used to be a 'beautiful angel' when the Bible says he's a 'serpent'?

How can pastors/theologians teach that God is a "trinity" when the Bible says 'there is one God, the Father'?

etc, etc...

Whether they're 'blinded' or 'deceived' or 'ignorant' or 'willfully ignorant' or 'deceivers'... it's all the same:


Ezekiel 14:9 Yea the prophet himself when he suffereth himself to be deceived, and speaketh a word, Yahweh have suffered that prophet to be deceived, Then will I stretch forth my hand against him, and destroy him out of the midst of my people. Israel:

I Kings 22:22 And Yahweh said unto him—Wherewith? And he said—I will go forth, and become a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets,—So he said,—Thou mayest persuade, yea and prevail, go forth, and do so.
23 Now, therefore, lo! Yahweh hath suffered a spirit of falsehood to be put into the mouth of all these thy prophets. But, Yahweh himself, hath spoken concerning thee, calamity.

II Thessalonians 2:10 And with all manner of deceit of unrighteousness, in them who are destroying themselves, because, the love of the truth, they did not welcome, that they might be saved;—
11 And, for this cause, God sendeth them an inworking of error, to the end they should believe in the falsehood,—
12 In order that should be judged who would not believe in the truth, but were well-pleased with the unrighteousness.


Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets, have prophesied, falsely, And the priests tread down by their means, And, my people, love it, so,—What then can ye do as to her latter end?



It's easier to repeat a lie than to dig for the truth.

Daywalker 

[aqrinc]

some around hear were also pushing Ransey's program. Ramsey's makes some good points that can be had for free on the internet, quicken and Microsoft money. I asked "If it is biblical then why does he charge 90 bucks?" "For production cost's of coarse" "Bull" I replied. Materialism is what drives Ramsey's program. Nothing wrong with being penny wise, put pepole are paying him(he gets rich) so that they can get rich(envy) it all stunk when it was pushed at my local church(i left) not one person that I know reported financial gain or financial security from that program. I do know that scripture says "Money is the root of all evil" I take that to heart. I think the pulpits push so ignorantly cause if the congregation makes more money then the church will make more money. Falls in line with their tithing guilt and greed methods. As for your technical question, looks like Mark covered that. I just had to rant. And I know I am preaching to the choir. Peace

Please note, The Love of money is the problem.

1Ti 6: 9-11 (GNB)
9  But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and are caught in the trap of many foolish and harmful desires, which pull them down to ruin and destruction.
10  For the love of money is a source of all kinds of evil. Some have been so eager to have it that they have wandered away from the faith and have broken their hearts with many sorrows.
11  But you, man of God, avoid all these things. Strive for righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and gentleness.


Heb 13:5 (GNB)
Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be satisfied with what you have. For God has said, "I will never leave you; I will never abandon you."

george .

[9440geoff]

Hi Eileen,

I was just reading through Lof "What happened to the church Jesus built", and came across this:

PAUL SAW THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL

Only a few years into Paul’s ministry, he told the Corinthian Congregation of the corruption already in the Church:

    "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ" (II Cor. 2:17).

Now I hope you all know that I love the King James, and it is true as stated in this verse that they "corrupted" the word of God, but this verse tells us much more than the King James translators present in this verse. Let’s read a few other translations of this same verse:

    "For we are not, as THE MANY, driving a PETTY TRADE with the word of God…" (A New Translation, By J. B. Rotherham).

    "For we are not as the MAJORITY, who are PEDDLING the word of God…" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

    "For I seek not PROFIT [LIKE MOST] by setting the word of God TO SALE…" (The Epistles of Paul, By Conybeare).

    "Unlike MANY PEOPLE, we are not in the habit of MAKING PROFIT out of God’s Message" (The Twentieth Century New Testament).

    "For I am no PEDDLER of God’s message LIKE MOST MEN" (An American Translation, By Goodspeed).

    "For I am not like MOST, TRAFFICKING in the word of God" ( The New Testament in Modern English, By Montgomery).

    "For we are not like THE GREAT NUMBER who make use of the Word of God for PROFIT" (The New Testament in Basic English).

    "For we do not, like SO MANY, PEDDLE [for profit] an adulterated message of God" (The Berkeley Version of the New Testament, By Gerrit Verkuyl).

ADULTERATING HUCKSTERS OF GOD’S WORD

Does anyone have any doubts now, as to what this verse is saying? I hope not. But there is still more in this verse that does not meet the eye of understanding unless we check the Greek. The word from which "corrupt," "profit," "peddling," and "trafficking" was taken, is the Greek word kapeleou, and it means much more than simply selling for a profit: Strong’s Greek Dictionary of The New Testament: #2585. kpeleuo (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate. This word means to be a retailer, to peddle, to hucksterize; hence, intentionally to get base gain by dealing in anything, to do anything for sordid personal advantage." (P. 128). WOW! But wait … here’s one more definition:

From Greek-English Keyword Concordance, "peddle [kapeleu’o], sell at retail, with the insinuation of improper profit, either by overcharging or adulterating"(P. 220).

Can you even begin to understand and believe what you are reading? Paul said that it was the MAJORITY that were retailing, selling, peddling, huckstering, an adulterated version of God’s word by overcharging improper profits far beyond rational living expenses for their own base gain and sordid personal advantage! Not only was this practice CORRUPT, but, it was being done by "THE MANY," "THE MAJORITY!" Tell me that you can’t see this being done in the church today?

Nothing changes.

Geoff

[Dave in Tenn]

Amen, Geoff.

Mat 19:23-26  ...and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens; and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.'

And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?' And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'