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Author Topic: Eternal Life not promised?  (Read 23126 times)

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love_magnified

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2006, 02:35:07 PM »

Those are great examples Jerreye. Do you have info on the word derivative of aidos. I don't have esword with me. I'd like to know the roots.
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2006, 03:20:53 PM »

I like this one...

Imperceptible? Perpetual (with an imperceptible ending)?

Would make complete sense not being able to see to "The End" of it  :wink:

Then again, if one could, I wonder if He would be "without end" only in Himself? :lol:

Peace

Daniel
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2006, 05:43:15 PM »

Hi love_magnified,

The root (according to Strong's) is "Aei", which seems to mean "perpetually, incessantly, invariably".

Here is an example which I think goes to show that this word Aidios does have the connotation of being "perpetual/on-going", but certainly not "never-ending", as is proved by Jude 6.

Mark 15:8 (KJV) And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever [GK: "AEI"]done unto them.

Certainly the use of the term "ever" in this verse is NOT speaking of "NEVER-ENDINGNESS" or "ETERNITY". The words "always" or "usually" would have been a much better choice.

Mark 15:8 (KJV) And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had always/usually [GK: "AEI"]done unto them.

Some might think: "well, doesn't the term 'always' mean "eternal"? Not true. Just because someone always did certain things in the past, doesn't by neccesity mean that he will continue to do these same things "for eternity". That should be self-evident when we think about it for more than just a few seconds :)

Can we give a sense of "eternal" by using the word "always"? Sure...

"God will ALWAYS love us"... plus... "God will ETERNALLY love us"...

Both above are acceptible...

BUT, look at this...

"Men will ALWAYS be evil, UNTIL God heals them"

The above is true.

The following is NOT true:

"Men will be ETERNALLY evil, UNTIL God heals them?"

Now we are back to square one. The above is an obvious contradiction, once we truly understand the meaning of the words "EVERLASTING/ETERNAL".

"Eternal", by its very definition and usage means NEVER-ENDING. Somthing can NOT be: "Eternal...UNTIL". That would render the term "Eternal" usless, don't you think?

God Bless,
Jeremy
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Sorin

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2006, 06:39:08 PM »

Well you guys can discuss this until the cows come home but I didn't get confused by Ray's answer. In fact I agreed with it. Nowhere in Scripture (not the Bible) are we promised "Eternal Life". Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality because we will never die again, but unlike God ( who is Eternal)
we all had a beginning. That's how I look at it.

Take care,
Sorin
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2006, 06:59:29 PM »

That’s great Sorin!!

Since you understand it so well maybe you can explain a few things to me.

You say:
Quote
Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality


How are they the same? Does everyone get "age-abiding" (or aionios) life? Who does get it? When do they get it?

Thank you in advance.

Chrissie
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love_magnified

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2006, 07:07:17 PM »

2 Timothy 1:8-11
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


Why life AND immortality? Because immortality is existence. Jesus Christ is LIFE. Aionios life is given to us in these ages right now:

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?


The reason it is life is because of Jesus Christ. The reason it is aionios is because right now, in these aions, he is within us. Aionios life is not immortality, it is the slavery to sin broken by the spirit within us during "chronos aionios" which is the time of the ages.
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2006, 07:43:52 PM »

I agree Love_Maginified

I think concentrating on the word by itself within the definition instead of the verse which defines it causes the problem.

Lets change the word eternal to something altogether different. :lol:  How about "beautiful"?

This is "beautiful life"" to know thee

Shouldn't we be looking into what it is "To know Him" :?:  rather then looking at the word "beautiful" in the verse losing what its talking about altogether?

But what we sometimes do, is hang onto the word.

"Beautiful"? Is it skin deep? How deep is it? Is it for only so LONG? How beautiful is it? What is beautiful?

How bout saying, simply "It is to know God" and go from "there". When do we stop "knowing God"? :lol:  To know God is to walk in love.

From this point I suppose one could ask, "what can separate us from His love? Shall life or death or anything other thing separate us from His love?

Perhaps I look stupid asking such a thing. It just gets so much more complicated with all these word definitions. The verse itself tells you what it is. Its our hope be careful not to "overthrow it". As with the resurrection anything that overthrows the faith or hope of others is treading dangerous ground.

Now I will leave, why the scholars figure this out.

Peace

Daniel
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love_magnified

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2006, 08:56:06 PM »

Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.
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Deedle

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2006, 12:17:31 PM »

Quote
Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.


Bingo  :wink:

Deedle  :D
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CharlieMike

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2006, 02:50:49 PM »

from: http://www.bibletruths.com/lake8.html

THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS
 
"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

(1)

That’s CHRIST.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and [I am] the LIFE´ (John 11:25).

The KJV translates "tree" in this verse from the Greek word xulon. Here is Strong’s definition of xulon: "timber (for fuel or material); by impl. a stick, club or tree or wooden art. or substance … xulon, wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood." The word "tree" does fit what is spoken of in this verse, but when we come to Rev. 22:2, "tree of life" does not seem to fit as well.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life…" (Rev. 22:2).

How do we have one tree of life on BOTH sides of the river?

One translation translates both of these verses as "wood of life." Another has, "log of life." Interestingly, one translation has this footnote, Wood is the primary significance of zulon, and may here denote, as in Rev. xxii, an aggregation of dendra, or trees, commonly called a wood, or forest; a xulon of life, occupying a place on both sides of the river."

What a marvelous word picture God has presented to us in these words. Jesus Christ is first and foremost, "The" [singular] Tree of Life. This is the Tree of Life spoken of in the Garden of Eden. That tree grew out of the earth, just as Jesus (the source of life—from His Father) came in the flesh (the "earth") to bring life (immortality—deathlessness, eternal life) to all humanity. Interestingly, the first time xulon is used in Scripture is where Jesus said,

"For if they do these things in a green [living] tree [Gk: xulon—wood] what shall be done in the dry [dead wood]?" (Luke 23:31).

Jesus Christ is the "green living tree." Jesus met His death by being crucified. The "cross" of Christendom was really a post, pole, or upright stake that is fastened or planted in the ground manually—it did not grow from that spot. It is not a living xulon or wood or tree. Jesus died on a DEAD wood or dead tree.

But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "ernest" or down payment in this life:

"…you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the ernest of our inheritance UNTIL [at a later date] the redemption of the purchased possession…" (Eph. 1:13b-14).

At the resurrection we will be changed:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: for we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2-3).

Jesus also said this:

"As Thou [the Father] has given Him [Jesus] power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life [eonian life, which for the believer includes immortality] to as many as Thou has given Him" (John 17:2).

And so, as Jesus has life in Himself, He will give us that same life. And just as Jesus is the Singlular "Wood [tree] of life," we too will become the Plural "Wood of Life" spoken of in Rev. 22:2. Remember a "wood" is a gathering of trees as in "woods" or "forest." Where do we read of such a gathering of "living trees?"

"And He showed me a pure river of water of life [this is God’s life giving spirit] clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God [the Father has life] and of the Lamb [the Father gives life to Jesus to give to as many as God has given Him]. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river [of life], was there the tree [xulon, wood, or woods or forest] of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (Rev 22:1-2).

Jesus is the source of all life because His Father gave Him life to disseminate to others.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF" (John 5:26).

So in Revelation 22 we see the river of life flowing from God and Christ, through the middle of the forest of trees of life (that’s US), and we in return "heal the nations" just as Obadiah prophesied of the coming of "saviours" (plural) to Mt. Zion (God’s headquarters of government throne) to judge the nations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The formatting doesn't copy over so I just put some words in red to make them stand out.

It sound to me like Ray is saying that the elect get the ernest of the spirit now (or a taste of it) but they do not receive eternal life and immortality until the first resurrection which takes place at the beginning of the millennium.

Then at the end of the millennium when everyone else is resurrected they are also given immortality.
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Deedle

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2006, 03:14:10 PM »

Rev 20:5  
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Joh 11:25  
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Rev 22:13  
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Eph 5:14  
Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light."

Col 2:12  
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Deed  :D
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2006, 03:51:38 PM »

Hi Deedle!  :D

So then my next questions would be: What IS the "thousand years"? What does it MEAN to be "resurrected from the dead"? And just WHO IS "dead"?

Chrissie
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Deedle

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2006, 04:03:05 PM »

Oh I think you know.  :wink:

Today!

2Pe 3:8  
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Heb 13:8  
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Out of time. Got to go.

Deedle  :D
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2006, 04:26:38 PM »

Quote
Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


AMEN! Deedle  :wink:

Christ comes as a thief in the NIGHT, which is AS YESTERDAY when it is PAST and TODAY when you hear His voice and harden NOT your heart! A thousand years TWICE TOLD!! Jesus Christ the SAME.... YESTERDAY and TODAY and FOREVER!!  [-o<

Chrissie
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2006, 04:30:46 PM »

Amen Chrissie and Deedle :lol:

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Gen 1:5 the darkness he called Night

1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, "which thing" is true "in him" and "in you" because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.  

1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Yesterday (as a thousand years) or the "watch" in "the night" has past when the dead hear His voice in the "To day".

Peace

Daniel
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2006, 04:34:20 PM »

:lol:  Amen Chrissie!!! Each day has a "time value" added to it. Thousand years are TWICETOLD. Its "doubled". Both in "Yesterday" and "To Day"

One passes "here" the other "begins" both being "here" :D

Peace

Daniel
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chrissiela

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2006, 04:43:51 PM »

Yes, Daniel! Good verses.

God divided the day, didn't He?  Calling the darkness NIGHT.  :idea:

Jesus, himself, said that there are but twelve hours IN THE DAY.

And "the thousand years" is what? A DAY unto to the Lord and A DAY is "a thousand years".

While it is called TODAY when we hear His voice... we pass from darkness (the NIGHT) into the light (the DAY)...  and the NIGHT becomes as YESTERDAY (also a thousand years) when it is past. Resulting in "a thousand years" twice told. ONE DAY to the Lord, that is divided.  :shock:

Quite beautiful really!! God is so amazing!!

    Pro 25:2  
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.[/list:u]

He sure does know how to hide a thing, don't He?  :lol:  :lol:

Chrissie
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eutychus

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2006, 04:48:54 PM »

wow, you guys and gals are smokin :P


really good stuff and blessing me, thanks.

been reading this thread  and  its wonderfull.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


when?  :wink:

thanks again saints

chuckt
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jerreye

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2006, 04:56:10 PM »

Hi Deedle (and everyone),

Perhaps I misunderstood Deedles post...maye some of you could clarify it for me  8)

Do you believe that we ARE, right NOW..."TODAY!" living in the "Thousand Years" spoken of in the book of Revelation?

Cheers!
Jeremy
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Daniel

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Eternal Life not promised?
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2006, 05:03:04 PM »

Hey Euty, myself and Chrissie are talking on this very thing at "tentmaker" under "Resurrection. first". My name is "Ruby" over there. I just was not sure it was something we could discuss here is why I took it there. Out of consideration to the board. Have you gone over there at all. Talking of the "thousand years" as they are shown in scripture. Its been a delightful conversation, full of insight the Lord has graciously given.

Blessing us always, we can't know a thing by ourselves without His help amen?

Peace

Daniel
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