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A question - falling away
Oatmeal:
I haven’t (yet?) thoroughly read through the LOF series. I’ve begun again and gone back to chapter one.
Ray writes:
What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
How do the following verses fit in?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is impossible for the elect to fall away, so these verses must apply to the called (just a comment).
Does Ray answer this question anywhere?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Oatmeal on September 19, 2009, 04:44:12 PM ---I haven’t (yet?) thoroughly read through the LOF series. I’ve begun again and gone back to chapter one.
Ray writes:
What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
How do the following verses fit in?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is impossible for the elect to fall away, so these verses must apply to the called (just a comment).
Does Ray answer this question anywhere?
--- End quote ---
Hello Oatmeal,
As Ray teaches, it is Jesus himself who tells us that all who will overcome (His Elect) will have first fallen away.
Lake of Fire Part 14 (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html):
EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST
What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.
Peter fell away:
"Jesus said unto him [Peter], Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, you shall deny me thrice [three times]" (Matt. 26:34).
All the apostles fell away:
"Then said Jesus unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad" (Matt. 26:31).
"And they ALL forsook Him, and fled." (Mark 14:50).
Paul fell away:
"As for Saul [renamed Paul], he made havock of the church…" (Acts 8:3) [while at the very same time he was "blameless" in keeping the Law of Moses] (Phil. 3:6).
ALL the Churches in Asia fell away after being in full support of Paul’s ministry. First:
"The churches of Asia salute [greet] you…" (I Cor. 16:19).
Later near the end of Paul’s ministry:
"This you know, that ALL they which are in Asia be TURNED AWAY FROM ME…" (II Tim. 2:15).
Paul warned the Ephesian Elders about the "flock—church" falling away:
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock [the whole flock]." (Acts 20:29).
Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:
"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).
Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:
"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).
Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:
"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:8 ).
Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:8 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.
Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
The writer of Hebrews further expounds on those who are 'impossible to be renewed again unto repentance' in the same chapter:
Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For [or 'because', this is the reason why] ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [this is talking about God's Elect...those who bring good fruit (Luke 6:43)]
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.[this is talking about those resurrected to judgment...those that bring forth corrupt fruit (Luke 6:43)] [NASB]
Matt 7:15-19
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
People who bring forth corrupt fruit, fall away to not be renewed to repentance, do not overcome (in this age), etc were NEVER chosen to be God's Elect in the first place...The Lord has chosen these few before the foundation of the world:
Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Hope this helps,
Marques
P.S. Welcome to the forum :)
Kat:
Hi Oatmeal,
Welcome to the forum :)
Here is an excerpt form the Lake of Fire article no. 13 'Who is the Beast?' This should help with your question, but there is more details in the article, here is the link.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------
Now I am sure that we all would like to declare that we have built OUR spiritual house upon The Rock of Jesus Christ, and that certainly WE are not among the foolish saints who have build our spiritual house upon the sand.
Make no mistake about it; if your spiritual house is built upon sand, IT WILL FALL! ALL spiritual houses built upon the sand, will fall.
The Great Church in Revelation is called:
"Mystery BABYLON THE GREAT, The Mother of harlots, and abominations of the earth" (Rev. 17:5).
This great church decidedly does NOT spiritually dwell in the heavens, but is ‘of the earth, earthy.’ This great church is built upon the spiritual sand of this world’s doctrines. And being built on sand, SHE WILL FALL:
"And there followed another angel, saying Babylon IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, that great city [‘For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children’ Gal. 4:25], because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:08).
And this…
"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 18:5).
And so, dear reader, if you have built your spiritual house upon the sand of this world’s great Church, you are warned to COME OUT OF HER, because she is going to fall, and "GREAT will be the fall of it."
This then, is the condition of ALL the saints at some time in their life, as they along with John, "…stood upon THE SAND OF THE SEA, and saw a wild beast rise up out of the sea…"
v
v
ALL FALL AWAY
I showed numerous times that all: leave their first love, forsake Jesus, look back, blaspheme, build a spiritual house upon the sand, etc.
It is when John is standing on the sand of the sea that he first sees the wild beast come up out of the sea. Now the questions become: "WHEN did John stand upon the sand in HIS life? WHEN do we stand upon the sand in OUR lives?
Answer: When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a ‘GREAT FALL.’ When (notice I did not say, ‘IF’)…when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn’t mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!
And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! This wild beast will be reckoned with by all humanity sooner or later.
THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST
I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God’s called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.
The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times…" That’s a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God’s plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "…and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for
"Who are you that judges another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).
We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!
--------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
CEO:
Kat, Marques
How did Paul fall away? How did Paul leave his first love? How did Paul come out ot her?
Isn't his falling away equal to leaving first love and equal to coming out of her, her being the corrupted mother church, Judaism?
Wouldn't falling seven times mean falling from lies into truth, when we have fallen far enough to hit bottom then we have come to the foundation, which is truth(Christ)?
Wouldn't this explain the more severe judgment for those who have heard with spiritual ears and seen with spiritual eyes the truth from Christs elected church (my Church) yet revert to false teaching?
Hmmm...
Askseeknock
Charles
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: CEO on September 25, 2009, 11:30:25 AM ---Kat, Marques
How did Paul fall away? How did Paul leave his first love? How did Paul come out out her?
--- End quote ---
Lake of Fire Part 14 (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html):
Paul fell away:
"As for Saul [renamed Paul], he made havock of the church…" (Acts 8:3) [while at the very same time he was "blameless" in keeping the Law of Moses] (Phil. 3:6).
--- Quote from: CEO on September 25, 2009, 11:30:25 AM ---Isn't his falling away equal to leaving first love and equal to coming out of her, her being the corrupted mother church, Judaism?
--- End quote ---
No, Paul and everyone else's 'falling away' is NOT equal to coming out of Babylon. When one is 'falling away' or 'leaving their first love' there are in the very midst of Babylon with no thought of coming out. That is why Christ tells us to 'repent' (to turn away) from the paganism we have been following.
--- Quote from: CEO on September 25, 2009, 11:30:25 AM ---Wouldn't falling seven times mean falling from lies into truth, when we have fallen far enough to hit bottom then we have come to the foundation, which is truth(Christ)?
--- End quote ---
No, one does not fall any number of times 'into' the truth. Like Christ says, we must repent...if falling was a means into His Truth, He would have commanded us to 'keep falling away' not to repent and turn away from carnal works.
--- Quote from: CEO on September 25, 2009, 11:30:25 AM ---Wouldn't this explain the more severe judgment for those who have heard with spiritual ears and seen with spiritual eyes the truth from Christs elected church (my Church) yet revert to false teaching?
Hmmm...
Askseeknock
Charles
--- End quote ---
Is the 'this' from your comments above referring to the excerpt from Hebrews 6? Here is my original post if so, and if not, please correct me by letting me know what the 'this' is you are referring to above:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on September 19, 2009, 07:59:49 PM ---The writer of Hebrews further expounds on those who are 'impossible to be renewed again unto repentance' in the same chapter:
Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For [or 'because', this is the reason why] ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [this is talking about God's Elect...those who bring good fruit (Luke 6:43)]
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.[this is talking about those resurrected to judgment...those that bring forth corrupt fruit (Luke 6:43)] [NASB]
Matt 7:15-19
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
People who bring forth corrupt fruit, fall away to not be renewed to repentance, do not overcome (in this age), etc were NEVER chosen to be God's Elect in the first place...The Lord has chosen these few before the foundation of the world:
Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
--- End quote ---
Thanks,
Marques
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