Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[firefly77]

I can't wait to hear the tapes and read the transcripts. Obviously, it is a timely message for all of us.

My last year has been spent with many hours verbally and thoughtfully flogging myself to the point of what seems like I’ve beat myself to a walking pile of quivering mental jello.

I get the picture and can so relate  .
Indeed, it is good to know we are not alone in this.
Although, each one of us may not see our progress every day, but looking back over the last 3 years of my life, I personally have changed quite a bit; for this I am so thankful!
You all are great and I am sincerely grateful that God has led me to this forum.
Angie

[cjwood]

Agreed, Bob.

Since learning about the topics, I've been trying to make bets with myself on whether any of those questions Ray hopes to tackle are answered correctly and scripturally by the various churches. 

I'm betting 'no'. 

So far, no part of myself is willing to take the other side of the bet. 

if i was a bettin, i would be a bettin 'no' too dave in tn.

claudia

[arion]

Unfortunately I can't attend the conference but I am so looking forward to hearing the audio once it is posted.  I think the biggest reason is that everything that Ray is going to share has been tried in the crucible of suffering and the fires of humbling that his condition has placed him under the last year or so.  God has given Ray incredible revelation but has also given him a huge thorn in his flesh at the same time to keep him from being puffed up by the revelations.  I believe that these will be the deepest teachings yet that has been produced through our brother and continuing prayers for strength and comfort to him and dear wife.

[daywalker]

Darren, just curious bout sumin: where in the Scripture does it state that there is 'no evil IN God'?

Both "darkness" and "evil" are creations of God...


From the Concordant Literal Version:

Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else. There is no Elohim except Me. I am belting you, yet you do not know Me."
6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."
7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."


...If there were "evil" IN God, then He would not have needed to "create" it.


Daywalker 

[NoviceBeliever]

6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."



Not to jack your response, daywalker, but this part just stuck out to me...does anyone have any other witnesses to this scripture?  Thanks NB

[geokuhns]

The subject of “Does God cause all things to happen” can be mind bending. The posts that have been generated are so inspiring because they show how God has opened our minds to understand things that the rest of the world thinks to be foolishness.

I want to add some clarification to my earlier post with the following statements which I have learned from Ray’s teachings. I believe them to be true but if not please advise.

1) God is the cause of everything that has happened or will happen in the future. (All is of God).

2) The “Cause” of everything was initiated by God in the beginning. (.........I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning.........” Isa. 46:9-10)

3) The “beginning” was when God created Jesus Christ. "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God," (Rev. 3:14)

4) God has pre-knowledge. Therefore God, at the “beginning”, knew everything that would occur from the beginning, in the future, concerning mankind because of A) the carnal nature He would instill in mankind and B) The immutable laws He would create. He knew then that far into the future a man living in Florida would kidnap a little girl, rape her and bury her alive. God did not have to make or force this man to do this sin. But because of the man’s carnal nature (God’s responsibility) and God’s immutable laws and circumstances God knew this would happen.

5) As mentioned in previous posts God does not make or force mankind to sin and I believe that with my whole heart but God does dangle a huge carrot in front of us. Then the carnal nature kicks in. Our only hope is Jesus Christ living His life in us. “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.” (Gal. 2:20)

The previous posts on the subject have been very inspiring and have explained in detail that God created evil for the purpose of creating good. It is extremely hard at first for our minds to comprehend how good could come out of the hideous crime described above but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.” (I Cor. 2:9). For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” (Rom. 14:11)  

[daywalker]

6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."



Not to jack your response, daywalker, but this part just stuck out to me...does anyone have any other witnesses to this scripture?  Thanks NB

Hey NB,

Yea, that part of the translation is a little awkward, I never caught it before...  Here's a few other versions:


RSV: Isa 45:6 that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

ROTHERHAM: Isa 45:6 That men may get to know. From the rising of the sun And from the west. That there is none besides me,—I, am Yahweh, and there is none else:

CEV: Isa 45:6 Now everyone from east to west will learn that I am the LORD. No other gods are real.


Daywalker 

[Roy Martin]

Ray says,
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further?  God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.

Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage.  God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children.  Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?

God could stop all men from having sex with children.  But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.

All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds.  And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins.  This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine.  I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.

 
  My question is if all is of God, and I do believe that is true, then how can we have desires all on our own.?
If we can desire things of our own and act on them with a choice that isn't free, but the right choice because all is of God whether the choice be good or bad, then how can we have the freedom to have our own desires when we know in our mind and heart that they are bad and yet we don't have the power to remove them without God.
  I just can't see where we can have any desire of our own since we were created that way.
I said in my earlier post to this topic that this is one of the most complex things for me to understand. I think the truth of the matter is that I wish I didn't know this truth. It makes me feel helpless and like a puppet. I feel like any choice I make is not a wrong choice because I am not in control. If I could make a choice about anything of my own then that would be the same as free will, wouldn't it?
 I am so uncomfortable with this truth. It makes me frustrated and helpless and a lot of other emotions that seems as if tossed tossed into a storm.
  Desires: Called out to God when I didn't believe in Him, Seek Him, have faith in Him, Love Him and my enemy's and everyone. These desires are not of my own and I can not remove them of my own, but Ray says we of our own desire women. Am I reading this wrong?
I have God on one shoulder giving me good desires, and Satan on the other shoulder giving me bad desires, and all is of God. Am I wrong about this?
 I cling to the truths that Ray has revealed to us by the power of God. Why has red flags gone up about this one? I am praying for understanding.
Peace
Roy

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

First of all as we know that God is sovereign, then that should be the foundation of your understanding concerning Him.  He possesses supreme power and authority and nothing happens apart from Him and only by His power does anything even remain in existence.  So that is the bases of His being responsible, "in Him ALL things consist" or hold together. 

Now He has worked our a brillant plan for the human race, we're in a difficult part of it right now, but all will have salvation and in the end.  Now that is the only way this creation can happen, is by His power that He will carry out this plan just as it is happening for us.  We have no power to do anything of ourselves, we are just dirt or clay in the Potter's hand.  But do you see that by Him giving all humans this experience in life, He is creating individuals, how great is that.  Out of all humans that will live no two are exactly alike.  It's His plan that all these experiences (good and bad) will have an end result "in bringing many sons to glory" (Heb. 2:10).  But we have to go through this life, act it all out before it is a reality.  We are actually doing all this that's happening in our life, even if it is caused, so we are accountable. 

Act 17:26  And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
v. 27  so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
v. 28  for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, "For we are also His offspring.'

Very few at this time have been given this understanding about His sovereignty and man having no free will, sure it's a hard concept, but we should seek and embrace our God who is doing this wonderful work. 

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are the privileged few who He is giving the understanding of truth now, but all will eventually come to this same knowledge.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night,
       Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
       For when Your judgments are in the earth,
       The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Martin]

Thank you Kat. See! when I read all that you quoted, I understand, or at least I think I do. I still can't see where we of our own can have any kind of desire. I might have just had a glimpse of  accountability and the purpose of it. That's a good start.
I would like to take Marques advice and just be thankful for the things I do understand, but its not happening.
Roy

[Marky Mark]

Hello Roy.

Email to Ray,hope it helps.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#sovern ---world’s wisdom*

Dear Mary:

Thank you for your comments. At least it is evident that you are using your brain and thinking.

It only seems confusing for you now, Mary. It is a GIANT revelation to come to realize that God is sovereign. If one thinks about, however, it is even a GREATER quantum leap into total foolishness to believe that GOD is NOT SOVEREIGN!!!

If God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my thirteen year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not a god)!

How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in?  Why does He allow it to continue?  If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way?  As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES?  Weren't things bad ENOUGH?

The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom.  Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?

Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?

I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".

Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!!

And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!

These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, he really is. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!

So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE?  Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc.  He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH.   It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men like Dr. Kennedy and Pastor Hagee who do not understand God's simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy.

There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily is "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).

Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).

Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.

Hope that helps your understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray





Peace...Mark

[Marky Mark]

Also, if no one minds.


http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD

The inhabitants of the whole world believe that they possess a wonderful gift from God called variously: "free will," "free choice," and "free moral agency." Even atheists believe that this marvel is a real and actual power evolved from primordial soup in some ancient sea slime. It is believed and taught that it is this agency of "free will" that enables a person to choose good over evil and even choose his own eternal destiny, independent of any one, any cause, or even God Himself. For if anything… ANYTHING should ever cause, hinder, persuade or restrict one’s supposed free will in any way, it would cease at that moment to be "free."

And so it is repeatedly stated that under no circumstances would God ever interfere with, cause, or force anyone to think or do anything against his sacred and God-given, free will. Of course we just saw a marvelous example in Scripture where men do change their wills against their wills, thus proving that neither their initial nor subsequent will was "free" at all.

I will show that free will is indeed an "idol of the heart" which needs to be repented of. And of all man’s sacred cows, free will is the most sacred of all. It is undoubtedly the most difficult doctrine in man’s walk with God to acknowledge and give up. And though neither science nor Holy Scripture know anything of a power called "free will," most will continue to defend it even in the light of a mountain of Scriptural proof that contradicts it at every turn.

To even question the existence of such a universally accepted sacred cow that has been lauded by theologians and philosophers since Eden, is to open oneself to criticism of being either a moron or an heretic. It is rather this theory of free will itself that is moronic and heretical. Yea, it is rather idiotic and evil. God Himself calls the notion of independent free choice, evil. There is a plethora of simple-to-understand teachings in the Scriptures that utterly contradicts the fantasy of man’s supposed "free will."

That man does indeed possess a "will" there is no doubt in either Science or the Scriptures. That such a will is "free," and brings about its own existence, however, is neither demonstrable by Science or Scripture. Contrariwise, both Science and Scripture teach against such an untenable phenomenon.

Remember that God says,

"For the wisdom [the ‘wisdom’ mind you, not the ‘foolishness’]…the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Gk: ‘stupidity’] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).



"CAUSE AND EFFECT"—THE FIRST EDICT OF THE UNIVERSE

Let me interject a few thoughts here before we go on. Science has never found an "effect" anywhere in the universe for which they believe there was not first a "cause." I mean, how could it be otherwise?

What is there anywhere, that can happen, come into existence, display an effect, for which there was absolutely NO CAUSE?

Why is it then that most of humanity believes that they can think thoughts that they themselves brought into existence WITHOUT ANY CAUSE? Why would anyone think such a thing? Well, for one thing, they are not usually, consciously aware of the cause. Therefore, they deceive themselves into believing that their thoughts HAD NO CAUSE!

But since when must the cause of an effect be visible or perceivable in order to be accepted? I can witness the tremendous effects and power of electricity, and yet I have never seen electricity. I see the effects and power of the wind, and yet I have never seen the wind. We can also see things and not feel them. I can see the sky, but I can’t feel the sky. We can also hear sounds, but we can’t see sounds. The rays of the sun burn our skin, but we can’t see the actual rays that burn us. We can smell things that we cannot see, hear, or feel. We can’t see taste.

Then why should it seem strange to us that we can have thoughts without seeing, feeling, hearing, or smelling the CAUSE of those thoughts. It is amazing just how deceiving this doctrine of free will is when we consider that most scientists accept free will as a fact, yet they would never in a million years accept anything else in the universe as coming into existence without a cause!

Psychiatrists and psychologists look for every conceivable CAUSE of mental diseases, personality disorders, and a plethora of behavioral dysfunctions associated with the thinking of the mentally challenged. Try to convince even one of them that these disorders have absolutely no cause whatsoever, and see how they will look at you with a cocked head. But then suggest to these same experts if indeed all of these malfunctioning thought patterns do have a cause, then just maybe all of our properly functioning and socially acceptable thoughts, ALSO HAVE CAUSES. And they will AGAIN look at you with a cocked head of incredulity! Does anyone see a CONTRADICTION in all this free will philosophy?





Peace...Mark

[aqrinc]

Roy, Kat and Mark,

Thanks, for the reminders Today.

I just heard a clunk as something fell back into place this very moment. GOD Is doing a strange work in us; for a few minutes this morning, i was feeling like a ping pong ball being wacked by very powerful and skilled players and wanting to yell; STOP.

Ok it is good now; i just ran back to ABBA, In Jesus Christ Name And Power.

Php 2: 12-13 (Phillips NT)
12  So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility.

12  For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.


george.

[Marky Mark]

See! when I read all that you quoted, I understand, or at least I think I do.

And now for some dessert...

What to do when you don't Understand God's Ways.

(Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV)
( For my thoughts {are} not your thoughts, neither {are} your ways my ways, saith the Lord. (9) For {as} the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

(Jeremiah 33:3 KJV)
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

(Romans 8:31 KJV)
What shall we then say to these things? If God {be} for us, who {can be} against us?

(Romans 8:35-37 KJV)
(35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? {shall} tribulation, or distress, or perse- cution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaugh- ter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

(1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God {is} faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear {it}.

(Psalm 34:19 KJV)
Many {are} the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.

(Psalm 55:22 KJV)
Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

(Isaiah 41:10 KJV)
Fear thou not; for I {am} with thee: be not dismayed; for I {am} thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

(Romans 8:28 KJV)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to {his} purpose.

(Hosea 6:3 KJV)
Then shall we know, {if} we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter {and} former rain unto the earth.

(Psalm 18:30 KJV)
{As for} God, his way {is} perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he {is} a buckler to all those that trust in him.

(Hebrews 10:23 KJV)
Let us hold fast the profession of {our} faith without wavering; (for he {is} faithful that prom- ised;)

(Jeremiah 32:40 KJV)
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

(Psalm 138:8 KJV)
The Lord will perfect {that which} concern- eth me: thy mercy, O Lord, {endureth} for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

(1 Peter 4:12-13 KJV)
(12) Beloved, think it not strange con- cerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.





Peace...Mark

[daywalker]

Hello Roy,

We all have our 'own' feelings, thoughts, emotions, and we all make our 'own' choices. But that, it simply means that all of the thoughts, feelings, emotions that lead to actions all 'come out of us'. Nobody 'forces' us to make any of our choices [for the most part... of course there are exceptions, like a person with a gun in their hands...].

But all our thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions all begin from 'within' us, specifically 'our hearts'; and all of these are affected by everything around us...

Who created man's heart? God.
Who created man's body? God.
Who created man's physical, mental, chemical layout? God.
Who created man's brain? God.
Who created all men/women's genetic makeup? God.
Who gave man the ability to have emotion? God.
Who gave man the ability to transfer his/her thoughts, feelings, & emotions into actions? God.
Who decides the sex of each person? God.
Who chooses the parents of each person? God.
Who chooses the ethnicity of each person? God.
Who chooses the place of birth for each person? God.
Who chooses the age/era of birth for each person? God.


etc., etc., etc.,...


"All is of God"


Daywalker 

Ray says,
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further?  God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.

Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage.  God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children.  Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?

God could stop all men from having sex with children.  But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.

All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds.  And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins.  This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine.  I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.

 
  My question is if all is of God, and I do believe that is true, then how can we have desires all on our own.?
If we can desire things of our own and act on them with a choice that isn't free, but the right choice because all is of God whether the choice be good or bad, then how can we have the freedom to have our own desires when we know in our mind and heart that they are bad and yet we don't have the power to remove them without God.
  I just can't see where we can have any desire of our own since we were created that way.
I said in my earlier post to this topic that this is one of the most complex things for me to understand. I think the truth of the matter is that I wish I didn't know this truth. It makes me feel helpless and like a puppet. I feel like any choice I make is not a wrong choice because I am not in control. If I could make a choice about anything of my own then that would be the same as free will, wouldn't it?
 I am so uncomfortable with this truth. It makes me frustrated and helpless and a lot of other emotions that seems as if tossed tossed into a storm.
  Desires: Called out to God when I didn't believe in Him, Seek Him, have faith in Him, Love Him and my enemy's and everyone. These desires are not of my own and I can not remove them of my own, but Ray says we of our own desire women. Am I reading this wrong?
I have God on one shoulder giving me good desires, and Satan on the other shoulder giving me bad desires, and all is of God. Am I wrong about this?
 I cling to the truths that Ray has revealed to us by the power of God. Why has red flags gone up about this one? I am praying for understanding.
Peace
Roy

[Dave in Tenn]

It's very easy to recognize that God is in control of History, or to see the working of God in somebody else's life in such a way that we cannot imagine it being different than it was.  It's not as easy to place ourself in that history and believe that God is just as much in control of US as he has been in the history of all those 'other people'.  He does it by causing the entire chain of events (like those outlined by Daywalker) and billions of other ones that we'll likely never fully understand (the mind and ways of God).

Is that fair?  Of course it is.  It's fair on the face of it because this whole shebang is HIS creation, including us!  He can do whatever He wants with it.  It's also fair, because it can't be any different than the way He knew from the beginning it would unfold and end.  Once He decided to create, nothing is left to chance or to a will other than His own which He's had from the beginning.

We may believe that we can conjure up some 'choice' that hasn't been absolutely pre-determined by all the billions and billions of circumstances which led up to that choice.  We may even believe that everything flows along as it has been foreknown, until God steps in in some special way to 'change' what He had already decided and knew to be what was going to happen (including our choices).

The truth is, THE most 'Pre-Ordained' event/personage in the history of the world is also the event/personage God has set up from the beginning to be the cause to the end of what He has ordained from the beginning.  Is there a more prophesied or promised or preordained event than the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?  The God who could do anything does THAT.  He IS that.  Nothing can undo that.

That event/personage, in turn, is the most powerful CAUSE of people's choices since creation itself.  He's going to work the power of His death and resurrection through every man; first Himself, then the firstfruits, etc. etc.  

The sovereignty of God is part of the salvation of all.  They can't be seperated, scripturally.  Nobody will be saved against their will.  Nobody will be saved by their will.  All will be saved by the will of God--no matter what it takes--to the glory of God.  That's the way I see it.

Don't be dismayed if you don't understand it all.  I keep saying this, but it's really the way I think:  If I could understand the mind and ways of God fully, I would cease to be impressed by Him.  Believe the scriptures.  Let God be true and every man a liar.  Including me.      

[cjwood]

Email to Ray, hope it helps.
So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE?  Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc.  He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH.  There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end.

We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true,

the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily His "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).

Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION?

O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).

Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.

roy, this email info will hopefully be the next step in His giving you undertanding of this 'hump' you are desiring to get over.

claudia

[Roy Martin]

Well today is a new day and finally after much prayer and reading and discussing this over with Silvia; I am at peace with this topic. I have struggled with this for six months or more. Yes! a big load has been lifted. I even think I can explain it to someone else. Wow! this feels good to say the least.

Peace
Roy

[cjwood]

     

claudia

[Marky Mark]

Well today is a new day and finally after much prayer and reading and discussing this over with Silvia; I am at peace with this topic. I have struggled with this for six months or more. Yes! a big load has been lifted. I even think I can explain it to someone else. Wow! this feels good to say the least.

Peace
Roy

Roy,glad to hear that the Lord has opened your heart and mind to one of His Grand Truths.The journey to the Truth can be difficult at times, but to the one who keeps knocking, the rewards are blessings indeed.


Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will
be opened to you..

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens
the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
 
 
Peace...Mark