journey to confusion - my letter to Ray

[Phil3:10]

Ray and Carol,
Thanks so very much for your posts. Carol, you hit the nail on the head for me. Ray, your reply to Carol was what I needed to hear right now. I appreciate more than anything that Ray is not looking for followers but teaching as he is led by GOD.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

[Kat]

Hi Carol,

Well it's kind of a mixture of being glad to see you back and sadness to hear what you have been going through.  I remember my years of confusion before coming to BT.  First I was in WWCOG in the era of Herbert Armstrong and I thought at the time that they were God's remnant/Elect.  I left that church sorely disappointed and yes confused.  I began to question whether it was possible to know the "truth."  But I thinking in order to worship God I needed to be in church, so I went to the church of my childhood, which was a Baptist.  I thought I could hang on to a few things that I understood to be truth and worship there.  But actually after hearing their rhetoric for years I began to lose the few beliefs I had and was really becoming mixed up.  Though I could not buy into a lot of what they taught, I was so confused and I was loosing hope in ever finding 'truth.'  Yes this 'truth' seemed more elusive than ever.  But I still believed there was one absolute truth, I just didn't think it was obtainable here on earth.  I was getting worn down by the things happening in this Christian 'sanctuary.'  I was unhappy, my 3 girls that was raised in the church were unhappy, it really was a mess.  It was then that God released me from this prison of confusion, by bringing me to the BT site.  As soon as I began reading I knew and felt assured that finally I was being shown the truth.  I really think that my pass experiences of wondering for so many years in darkness has helped me have confidence that this is the truth.  I can't help but think we need that experience in darkness before we can really appreciate the light and He will bring us to the truth.

Another thing you mentioned was the horrid thing that happened to that little baby.  Why would God not only allow, but be responsible for this type thing to happen?  And we have news reports of awful and disturbing things that one human being is capable of doing to another human being quite a bit.  I really think that we have always had these disturbing and wicked things going on from the beginning of the time man has been on the earth.  It really puts into perspective this verse.

Gen 6:5  Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But why did God make us this way, so evil and wretched?  I think there will be no end to the wickedness that man is capable of until this age ends and Christ returns.  Right now it's hard to comprehend how His plan and purpose could possibly compensate for all of the things that are happening in this world now.  Well I believe that we simply do not have enough understanding or insight into the next part of God's plan yet.  But I am confident that He will indeed right every wrong, I don't know how, but I know He does not lie and we have this Scripture that gives us that assurance.

Rev 21:4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

So now I live with a kind of resolve that things are as they need to be now and His purpose is for the ultimate good, so He will rectify all things, even for those who suffer in ways that's hard to understand now.  We have to remember that Jesus Christ truly does sympathize with what we are going through.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

It really is amazing to me that Jesus Christ having seen for centuries what human being were capable of, yet put aside His glory and came down (way down) into the form of a man.  This He did because He loves us so much that in order for their plan to bring us into glory, He was willing to be a sacrifice Himself.  This does help us put things into perspective.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
v. 6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
v. 8  And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

We all care for you Carol and are praying that God will bring you through these trials into a strong and confident understanding of who He is and that you can rest assured that His plan is perfect.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Coates]

Greatly moved by your testimony Carol as well as Ray's and others responses. Thanks for the post. Peace and Grace

[OBrenda]

Hi Carol,

Been trying to think what to add to your post.  As I was "one" of those in the group you mentioned, that wanted to study together.
I think you know how I feel about you.  If you don't, let me say in front of the entire forum how much I am grateful for your befriending me and inviting me into the group.  You helped me by taking time to explain things I was struggling with, and were honest and open about some issues that we shared.

I was never apart of "Mikes Group" so I did not share the experience of realizing that someone you had high regard for as a teacher was in gross error (since learning the truth taught here).  I don't believe that anyone that has found Ray's site, hasn't experienced this to some degree.  There are wonderful people I have tried to share the great Revelation of no hell and UR, that are offended by it because they would have to admit some certain previous new understanding was not entirely true.  It is our shared carnal nature to value ourselves better, through our ideas, intellect and opinions.

For decades it has been apparent to me that as you also observed, there are no two people who believe exactly the same on every issue.  It's a lonely existence for every soul to be aware of this fact.  At times it's unbearably painful, can we not even find a safe haven here?  Why would God put us all through this "no win" paradim?

My flawed and limited reasoning with prayerful questioning, suspects that we can not attain "God Like Love" with out first experiencing first hand evil.  If God has willed us to succeed in this, at this time, then forgiveness and compassion and redemption can be seen for both Mother & Child in such a hideous state.  As you have so discerned and cried out to God about this ugliness!  I can't help but wonder at least in part, was not his great purpose...For you to overcome this temporary evil, with a desire for hope & Love of ALL vs destroying most of humanity?

Could it be that as we bump souls with each other and find strife, that we are all pruned to be more the image of Christ in our spirit?
Can we find a hope to account this to great Joy that he is finishing a great work in us.
Can it also be that when we find everyone lacking in love and understanding, that it is the grace of God that causes us to understand we have no free will and compells us to seek him and not each other?

I have been in a major funk myself, and I have to thank Linny's sweet spirit to compel me to organize my thoughts.  How grateful we need to be of the moderators here, and the opportunity to share our growing pains together at Ray's BT forum.  I'm so looking forward to hearing Ray at his conference, God willing Carol, I can't wait to give you a big hug in person!

Your grateful friend, who weeps with you over the kittens,
Brenda

[myms]

Hi Carol
I too was part of Mike's group and 'met' every Sunday for his online bible study. I even saved enough money to attend one of his conferences - quite a trek from the UK (wish now I'd stayed at home and still had the money to get to Ray's conference in November!!). Within a couple of weeks of attending that conference I realised how far he'd strayed from the truth and reverted back to Rays teaching and thats when I too joined that rather select little skype group with you and Brenda LOL. However, like you I tired of all the arguments and so I stopped 'meeting'. Another member of the group, also from the UK, (you'll know who I'm talking about) has also suffered greatly, has been unable to see the purposes of God in his situation and is also confused and angry, I thought of him as I read your email, I miss his gems of wisdom more than he'll ever know.
I'm hanging on in there in the midst of my own trials, mostly because, in the words of Peter - when many disciples turned back and no longer followed Jesus and He asked them if they too wanted to abandon Him - 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life and we have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God'. At the end of the day, Carol, who else is there to turn to?
If I could get to the conference in November, I like Brenda, would love to give you a hug (and Brenda a hug!) It seems only in retrospect that we can see God's hand in our journey and the very strange paths He leads us - even that group had its place - very strange!! M

[gmik]

Hab 3:17    Even though the fig trees have no blossoms, and there are no grapes on the vine; even though the olive crop fails, and the fields lie empty and barren; even though the flocks die in the fields, and the cattle barns are empty,

Hab 3:18    yet I will rejoice in the Lord! I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.

Hab 3:19    The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He will make me as surefooted as a deer and bring me safely over the mountains.


IF I were a doctor, these would be the "pills" I would prescribe!!  Read them carefully, meditate, not for seconds but for hours, days, if need be until YOU can obey this!

My paraphrase....Even tho "women are eating their babies" (or insert one of a billion things that are evil) YET YET YET will I rejoice in the LORD.  the Lord is my STRENGTH, HE will guide me safely...

CAN WE DO THIS?   dO WE BELIEVE IT??  If we believe then we must OBEY.

Carol's honest testimony had me teary, Ray's courage and love brought tears to my eyes, but Habbakuk had me bawling!
It is MY life I need to live for HIM,  not to look at the world and question Him or His Ways.  I am preaching this to myself, I am not there, but I want to be.

Thanks Carol and all responders.  thank you Dennis for posting Ray's response.  We are so blessed!

[Ninny]

Amen to that, Gena!!
Kathy

[aqrinc]

Hab 3:17    Even though the fig trees have no blossoms, and there are no grapes on the vine; even though the olive crop fails, and the fields lie empty and barren; even though the flocks die in the fields, and the cattle barns are empty,

Hab 3:18    yet I will rejoice in the Lord! I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.

Hab 3:19    The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He will make me as surefooted as a deer and bring me safely over the mountains.


IF I were a doctor, these would be the "pills" I would prescribe!!  Read them carefully, meditate, not for seconds but for hours, days, if need be until YOU can obey this!

My paraphrase....Even tho "women are eating their babies" (or insert one of a billion things that are evil) YET YET YET will I rejoice in the LORD.  the Lord is my STRENGTH, HE will guide me safely...

CAN WE DO THIS?   dO WE BELIEVE IT??  If we believe then we must OBEY.

Carol's honest testimony had me teary, Ray's courage and love brought tears to my eyes, but Habbakuk had me bawling!
It is MY life I need to live for HIM,  not to look at the world and question Him or His Ways.  I am preaching this to myself, I am not there, but I want to be.

Thanks Carol and all responders.  thank you Dennis for posting Ray's response.  We are so blessed!

Hi Gena,

This is truth you write, when we start to understand this, we are becoming usable (humble) for what GOD Is preparing us to do. I used four different translations of the same Scripture for perspective only.


Ecc 1:13 (MKJV)
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all which is done under the heavens. It is a sad task God has given to the sons of men to be humbled by it.

Ecc 1:13 (LITV)
And I gave my heart to seek and to investigate by wisdom concerning all which is done under the heavens. It is an evil task God has given to the sons of men, to be afflicted by it.

Ecc 1:13 (Darby)
And I applied my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: this grievous occupation hath God given to the children of men to weary themselves therewith.

Ecc 1:13 (CLV)
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

george.

[Marlene]

This whole post from the start has been great help to me. I keep wondering how some of the things we see in our life can be for good. But, I know it is in God's hands. I have no right to think I know best in all things of life. Does not make it easy. But, it does humble me. Going through some great trials in my life. Just, when I think I went through the hardest time of my life, there comes another.

It is really something to watch Ray be tested and see his love for God. I am so glad that God led me here when he did. I need him and you all more then I ever did.

Carol, so glad you began this post and praying for you. I was confused and God led me here. The scriptures from Habk. really speak loud and clear.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Dennis Vogel]

This whole post from the start has been great help to me.

When trials come our way it's hard for us to remember that all the evils in this world ultimately serve a good purpose.

Here one person's trials inspires another for the good.

[jeetkunejimi]

You don't need to know exactly how a good curry is made to be able to enjoy it, or for it to sustain your body.

[Phil3:10]

Carol and all,
For reasons known only to GOD I was drawn back to Carol's post this Sunday morning. I have re-read each post and want to thank each one that posted for the spirit of love evidenced in each post. Ray Smith has meant so much to me and I think his humility is the main reason I feel as I do about him. There is no boasting, no need to be praised, no financial reason but only the truths of GOD in every word he teaches.
Carol, in her reply, after Ray's post, evidences the way I feel each time I spend GOD directed time in this site. I really thank ericsteven for his 8/13/2009 post on the prayer of Habakkuk which I probably would have never spent the time I did this morning. This time helped me to understand more fully GOD'S reason for evil. However, the promise that the earth will be filled with the knowledge and glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14) did much to ease my concerns.
(Hab. 2:20) "But the LORD is in HIS holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before HIM". speaks directly to my weak mind. Maybe, this is what all of us need to do more of.  Just to know that all is of HIM, HIS SON who is HIS WORD, and just rejoice in the LORD, the joy of my salvation (Hab. 3:18)

In HIM,
Phil3:10

[judith collier]

Carol. I have come late to this discussion. You remind me of myself, your questioning, your anger, your frustration. I have always been a rebel and I especially rebel against evil but I have found out in my later yrs.(I am 67) that it does no good, it wears me out. Flesh cannot fight spirit, only spirit and the Godly kind at that, can overcome.
I too was crazy mad at one time and blamed God, that did me no good either. After 35 yrs. I think I might be surrending a bit. Use your courageous spirit to speak out against the evil but always with love and understanding. I don't mean understanding the evil but the person doing it. A person, a fallen creature, a sick creature, who might or might not know God. I am not saying call evil good in any way.
Jesus got angry and lost His patience with evil. God is good, we are somewhat aquainted with good, but we are nothing in the presence of God. Why did God create evil? I just tell myself He is not one-sided, we were made like Him in that way but tension produces steel, struggle produces strength. Humans respond with evil at times when the good is meant to respond but then again look at who we are, a fallen race designed by God but with much purpose.
Keep fighting Carol, just know your enemy. And pray with me about that woman that she never recovers her sanity because if she realizes what she has done, it will be worse than the act itself. And it would be a privilege if you would say a prayer for me. Thank you, love you, judy

[cjwood]

You don't need to know exactly how a good curry is made to be able to enjoy it, or for it to sustain your body.

was going to comment on this when i read it originally, but i, well.......i just forgot to. 

i can appreciate this analogy.

claudia