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Judgment for our sin?
9440geoff:
Some friends sent me an email which included the following:
"The well-known English Bible teacher, John Hosier says this: ‘Beware. Even for believers there is going to be a judgement – not for our sin, which has already been settled once for all by Christ, but as an evaluation of the way we have lived our lives for Jesus. Be aware there are rewards to be lost or gained according to the choices we make now.’ "
At first glance I thought 'that doesn't sound right', but on searching bible-truths I found the following quote from Ray:
--- Quote ---"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!
--- End quote ---
However, John Hosier was referring to believers, in his quote, so is he correct?
Geoff
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: 9440geoff on September 29, 2009, 08:59:52 AM ---Some friends sent me an email which included the following:
"The well-known English Bible teacher, John Hosier says this: ‘Beware. Even for believers there is going to be a judgement – not for our sin, which has already been settled once for all by Christ, but as an evaluation of the way we have lived our lives for Jesus. Be aware there are rewards to be lost or gained according to the choices we make now.’ "
However, John Hosier was referring to believers, in his quote, so is he correct?
Geoff
--- End quote ---
Hello Geoff,
No, John Hosier is not correct. The rewards for God's Elect are not a matter of chance...or something to be 'gained' or lost'.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 6:39 ...this is the will of Him who sent me [Jesus], that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Also, the judgment for the believers as well as unbelievers will be of our WORKS:
1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Pet 1:16-17 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work,
If the church teaches it, and you look deep enough into it, it will be absolutely false from what the scriptures teach.
Hope this helps,
Marques
aqrinc:
Hi Geoff,
I can only add these 2 verses to what Marques has written and quoted.
Php 2: 12-13 (Twentieth Century NT)
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always been obedient in the past, so now work out your own Salvation with anxious care, not only when I am with you, but all the more now that I am absent.
13 Remember it is God who, in his kindness, is at work within you, enabling you both to will and to work.
Php 2:12-13 (JB PHILLIPS NT)
12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. (13) For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
george :).
9440geoff:
I have been studying this subject for several days waiting for the penny to drop, but it hasn't yet. Could you help me with the following, please:
_________________
--- Quote ---"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
--- End quote ---
Who are the few that Ray refers to who have committed the above crime?
Geoff
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: 9440geoff on October 04, 2009, 03:16:23 PM ---I have been studying this subject for several days waiting for the penny to drop, but it hasn't yet. Could you help me with the following, please:
_________________
--- Quote ---"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
--- End quote ---
Who are the few that Ray refers to who have committed the above crime?
Geoff
--- End quote ---
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2175.0):
Dear Jennifer:
Jennifer, I have many hundreds of emails ahead of yours, but I took the time to answer your before them all. It is not possible, however, for me to write essay type answers to hundreds and thousaands of emails. I realize that this is hard for many people to understand. Your email is about 6 pages long. If all my emails were 6 pages long, I would have to read thousands of pages each year before I could answer all my emails. Try that some time.
Don't apologize in one sentence and then put me down in the next. I did give you constructive criticism in my answer to you. I said that your theory was not Scriptural, because if it was, then Paul himself would have commited the "unpardonable sin" when he persecuted the Church of Christ in the name of God.
However, I do not wish for you to be despondent over this matter or me.
When Jesus warned of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it was when He had cast out demons. The Scribes said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of devils (Mark 3:22). The Pharisees also accused Him of this very same thing (Matt. 9:34). And we are told that Jesus gave that stern warning, "Because they said, He [Jesus] has an unclean spirit."
But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly." God's principles are always true. There was more to the sin of these Scribes and Pharisees than merely stating that Jesus had a devil and cast out devils by the prince of devil. The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER. They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT. They were sinning aginst WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH. And how do we know this? We are frankly TOLD this in the Scriptures.
In John 3 we have a "Ruler of the Jews" by the name of Nicodemus, and this is what we are told by him: "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a RULER [this man KNEW what the Scribes and the Pharisees believed behind closed doors] of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews] KNOW that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; for no man can do these miracles [such as casting out demons] that You do, except GOD BE WITH HIM" (John 3:1-2).
It is when we KNOW the truth and blaspheme AGAINST THE TRUE LIGHT THAT WE KNOW, that we then "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which is the means by which light and truth is imparted.
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2058.0.html):
Dear Rene:
Good to hear from you.
Balaam obviously represents all prophets who desire worldly goods over teaching the truths of God. That is why were are warned of Balaam several times in the New Testament. The doctrine of Balaam is to lead God's people astray into idolatry and spiritual fornication, all the while linng their own pockets. And don't think that Balaam was unique in that he knew some of God's truths, but preferred to teach lies for gain. I have always marveled at the statement of Nichodemus:
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, A RULER of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE KNOW [that is, 'we RULERS of the Jews,' K-N-O-W....] that You are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that You do, except God be with Him" (John 3:1-2).
And just as sure, many of the rulers of the Chrch today, KNOW what God's word teaches on such subjects as immortal soul, eternal hell, etc., but they will not teach or acknowledge these truths to those they consider to be THE DUMB SHEEP. There are many Balaam's in the Church today--many antichrists.
God be with you,
Ray
Geoff,
When Ray is referring to the 'few' that have committed this transgression, it is in relation to all of humanity. I state that because I didn't want you to be confused with the use of 'few' in the Lake of Fire series where this quote was taken, compared to the 2nd email above.
Does this help? If not, you do not have to wait 'several days' but ask away. Also, if you could, try to be a little more specific and that way more members can assist. Thanks
Marques
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