Judgment for our sin?

[9440geoff]

Some friends sent me an email which included the following:

"The well-known English Bible teacher, John Hosier says this: 'Beware. Even for believers there is going to be a judgement – not for our sin, which has already been settled once for all by Christ, but as an evaluation of the way we have lived our lives for Jesus. Be aware there are rewards to be lost or gained according to the choices we make now.' "

At first glance I thought 'that doesn't sound right', but on searching bible-truths I found the following quote from Ray:

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!

However, John Hosier was referring to believers, in his quote, so is he correct?

Geoff

[mharrell08]

Some friends sent me an email which included the following:

"The well-known English Bible teacher, John Hosier says this: 'Beware. Even for believers there is going to be a judgement – not for our sin, which has already been settled once for all by Christ, but as an evaluation of the way we have lived our lives for Jesus. Be aware there are rewards to be lost or gained according to the choices we make now.' "

However, John Hosier was referring to believers, in his quote, so is he correct?

Geoff

Hello Geoff,

No, John Hosier is not correct. The rewards for God's Elect are not a matter of chance...or something to be 'gained' or lost'.

Rom 8:29-30  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 6:39  ...this is the will of Him who sent me [Jesus], that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Also, the judgment for the believers as well as unbelievers will be of our WORKS:

1 Cor 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Pet 1:16-17  Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work,

If the church teaches it, and you look deep enough into it, it will be absolutely false from what the scriptures teach.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[aqrinc]

Hi Geoff,

I can only add these 2 verses to what Marques has written and quoted.

Php 2: 12-13 (Twentieth Century NT)
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always been obedient in the past, so now work out your own Salvation with anxious care, not only when I am with you, but all the more now that I am absent.
13 Remember it is God who, in his kindness, is at work within you, enabling you both to will and to work.


Php 2:12-13 (JB PHILLIPS NT)
12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. (13) For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.

george .

[9440geoff]

I have been studying this subject for several days waiting for the penny to drop, but it hasn't yet. Could you help me with the following, please:

                                                  _________________

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.

Who are the few that Ray refers to who have committed the above crime?

Geoff

[mharrell08]

I have been studying this subject for several days waiting for the penny to drop, but it hasn't yet. Could you help me with the following, please:

                                                  _________________

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.

Who are the few that Ray refers to who have committed the above crime?

Geoff

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2175.0):

Dear Jennifer:
Jennifer, I have many hundreds of emails ahead of yours, but I took the time to answer your before them all. It is not possible, however, for me to write essay type answers to hundreds and thousaands of emails. I realize that this is hard for many people to understand. Your email is about 6 pages long. If all my emails were 6 pages long, I would have to read thousands of pages each year before I could answer all my emails. Try that some time.

Don't apologize in one sentence and then put me down in the next. I did give you constructive criticism in my answer to you. I said that your theory was not Scriptural, because if it was, then Paul himself would have commited the "unpardonable sin" when he persecuted the Church of Christ in the name of God.

However, I do not wish for you to be despondent over this matter or me.

When Jesus warned of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it was when He had cast out demons. The Scribes said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of devils (Mark 3:22).  The Pharisees also accused Him of this very same thing (Matt. 9:34). And we are told that Jesus gave that stern warning, "Because they said, He [Jesus] has an unclean spirit."

But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly."  God's principles are always true. There was more to the sin of these Scribes and Pharisees than merely stating that Jesus had a devil and cast out devils by the prince of devil. The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER.  They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT.  They were sinning aginst WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH.  And how do we know this?  We are frankly TOLD this in the Scriptures.

In John 3 we have a "Ruler of the Jews" by the name of Nicodemus, and this is what we are told by him:  "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a RULER [this man KNEW what the Scribes and the Pharisees believed behind closed doors] of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews]  KNOW  that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; for no man can do these miracles [such as casting out demons] that You do, except GOD BE WITH HIM"  (John 3:1-2).

It is when we KNOW the truth and blaspheme AGAINST THE TRUE LIGHT THAT WE KNOW, that we then "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which is the means by which light and truth is imparted.
God be with you,
Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2058.0.html):

Dear Rene:
     
    Good to hear from you.
    Balaam obviously represents all prophets who desire worldly goods over teaching the truths of God.  That is why were are warned of Balaam several times in the New Testament.  The doctrine of Balaam is to lead God's people astray into idolatry and spiritual fornication, all the while linng their own pockets.  And don't think that Balaam was unique in that he knew some of God's truths, but preferred to teach lies for gain.  I have always marveled at the statement of Nichodemus:
     
    "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, A RULER of the Jews:  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE KNOW [that is, 'we RULERS of the Jews,' K-N-O-W....] that You are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that You do, except God be with Him" (John 3:1-2).
     
    And just as sure, many of the rulers of the Chrch today, KNOW what God's word teaches on such subjects as immortal soul, eternal hell, etc., but they will not teach or acknowledge these truths to those they consider to be THE DUMB SHEEP.  There are many Balaam's in the Church today--many antichrists.
    God be with you,
    Ray


Geoff,

When Ray is referring to the 'few' that have committed this transgression, it is in relation to all of humanity. I state that because I didn't want you to be confused with the use of 'few' in the Lake of Fire series where this quote was taken, compared to the 2nd email above.

Does this help? If not, you do not have to wait 'several days' but ask away. Also, if you could, try to be a little more specific and that way more members can assist. Thanks


Marques

[jerreye]

Ray says:

But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly."

So then, does this mean that anyone who sins in the flesh out of weakness or addiction (eg. - people who can't stop smoking or doing drugs, lusting over the other sex, coveting other peoples stuff etc, even though they know its wrong but are having trouble stopping) are blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps I missed something...?

[Kat]

Hi Jerreye,

Ray is talking about a very specific sin here.

When Jesus warned of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it was when He had cast out demons. The Scribes said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of devils (Mark 3:22).
v
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But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowingly."  God's principles are always true. There was more to the sin of these Scribes and Pharisees than merely stating that Jesus had a devil and cast out devils by the prince of devil. The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER.

In that email Ray is specifically talking about the "unpardonable sin."

Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Mat 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Here is more of that email where Ray shows the Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of this sin. 

They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT.  They were sinning aginst WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH.  And how do we know this?  We are frankly TOLD this in the Scriptures.

In John 3 we have a "Ruler of the Jews" by the name of Nicodemus, and this is what we are told by him:  "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a RULER [this man KNEW what the Scribes and the Pharisees believed behind closed doors] of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews]  KNOW  that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; for no man can do these miracles [such as casting out demons] that You do, except GOD BE WITH HIM"  (John 3:1-2).

It is when we KNOW the truth and blaspheme AGAINST THE TRUE LIGHT THAT WE KNOW, that we then "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which is the means by which light and truth is imparted.

As Ray is showing the Scribes and Pharisees knew the truth and knowingly and maliciously spoke evil of the truth/Spirit. 
But if you do not know the truth, then you would be considered "ignorant" and not be guilty of blasphemy against the Spirit.  I believe that is what Ray was speaking of in the statement you pointed out.

But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly."

What you mentioned "weakness or addiction (eg. - people who can't stop smoking or doing drugs, lusting over the other sex, coveting other peoples stuff etc, even though they know its wrong but are having trouble stopping) are blaspheming the Holy Spirit?"

I do not believe that the people that you spoke of know the truth and would be considered ignorant, and so as Ray said they would be "held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly."  Thus they would not be guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Samson]

Hi Geoff,

             Here is another E-mail response from Ray regarding the unpardonable Sin, it helps to explain that this type of Sin is unpardonable for a certain amount of ages, see below in blue print.


                [Ray answers a young man's concerned he committed the Unpardonable Sin]

Dear Kevin:

Thank you for your email and comments. Part of the reason you feel so bad about your sinful condition is because of the false teachings you undoubtedly received as a youngster.

The Bible speaks of the "foolishness of youth," so it should not be surprising that as youths we all have done stupid and foolish things--God expects it.  However, when God reveals Truth to us, those feelings of guilt are designed to TURN US AROUND and go a different direction.  A guilty conscience is one of the worst things we can carry around with us.

Many people speak of the "UNpardonable sin" as thought the Scriptures actually spoke of such a thing. They DO NOT! There is no such thing as an "unpardonable sin" in the Bible.

Well, then, what about Matt. 12:-31-32? Let's read it in a proper translation: 

"Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned." 

It certainly SOUNDS like the blasphemy of God's spirit is an unpardonable sin, doesn't it? Let's continue reading:

"And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Man, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, [ever? continue reading...] neither in THIS EON [age] nor in that [age] which is IMPENDING."

Now then, does it really say this sin is UNPARDONABLE?  It is only unpardonable "in this age" and also "in the age to come [the impending age]." So it doesn't say it will NEVER be pardoned--only in this and the coming age will it NOT be pardoned. 

What about the age AFTER the coming age?  Ah, there is the answer. We live in what the Bible calls "this present wicked age." But the age to come is the ONE THOUSAND year reign of Christ in His kingdom on this earth. The sin against the holy spirit will not be pardoned in either of these two ages. When then? The age AFTER these two ages. After the one thousand year reign of Christ comes the white throne judgment in which ALL the unbelievers of the world will be judged. Judging has to do with setting things RIGHT, not condemning to some fabled hellhole of eternal torture in fire.

In Rev. 20 and 21 we read of God's purging lake of fire which will deal with all unbelievers and their sins. There will be many there who have blasphemed the holy spirit. But in that age of judging and setting right, even they will receive pardon and salvation. It is God's will and desire to save ALL MANKIND (I Tim. 2:4). And God will certain fulfill ALL THAT HE HAS PURPOSED (Isaiah 46:10-11).

But the main thing I would tell you, Kevin, is that if you FEAR that you might have committed this sin, it is actually evidence THAT YOU HAVE NOT committed this sin. Those who blaspheme the holy spirit HAVE NO CONSCIENCE about their sin and therefore don't even care. Since you care and are concerned it is proof that God has given you a heart that wants to do right. So follow God's leadings in your life and these feelings of guilt will leave you.

In the near future I will have a paper on the Lake of Fire posted on my site explaining these verses in Revelation that the world of Christendom have perverted to make it appear that God is going to torture most of His children in fire for all eternity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

May God be with you!

Sincerely,

Ray


Home


Notice the ninth paragraph regarding Ray's definition of the different ages, after those ages, the unpardonable Sin won't be unpardonable anymore.

               Hope this helps, Samson.

[daywalker]

Some friends sent me an email which included the following:

"The well-known English Bible teacher, John Hosier says this: 'Beware. Even for believers there is going to be a judgement – not for our sin, which has already been settled once for all by Christ, but as an evaluation of the way we have lived our lives for Jesus. Be aware there are rewards to be lost or gained according to the choices we make now.' "

At first glance I thought 'that doesn't sound right', but on searching bible-truths I found the following quote from Ray:

"Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10:29).
I can assure you that those who have committed the above crime towards the Lord are few indeed. Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have NEVER EVEN HEARD of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an UNHOLY thing, and done DESPITE unto the Spirit of grace." Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word "punishment" with reference to punishing sinners!

However, John Hosier was referring to believers, in his quote, so is he correct?

Geoff

The Judgment of the Elect/Chosen/Few is not something of future.. it is happening NOW, in THIS lifetime, in THIS eon/age:


I Peter 4:17 For the time IS come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we ARE judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Hebrews 12:11: Now no chastening FOR THE PRESENT seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various temptations. Knowing this, that the TRYING of your faith produces patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect, and entire, lacking nothing...

I Peter 1:7 That the TRIAL of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be TRIED with FIRE [I Cor 3:13 Every man's WORK shall be made manifest... it shall be revealed by FIRE...the FIRE shall TRY every man's WORK...], might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

I Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the FIERY TRIAL which is to TRY you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:


THE GOOD NEWS:

James 1:12: Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive a crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love Him


Daywalker 

[9440geoff]

Thank you to all who have replied .

Samson, thanks, that is a great email from Ray that you posted. It explains Matt 12: 31-32 very clearly.

Marques, your reply is helpful but, for me at least, it leaves the question unanswered.

Quote from Ray from your link:

The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER.  They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT.  They were sinning against WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH. 

So if we bring this up to date, does the few include people like John Hagee and leaders of churches who know the truth but are afraid of telling their congregations for fear of losing income?

Does the few include people like my friends who sent me the email, to whom I tell the truth but they choose to reject it, or even my wife who appears to be frightened of the truths that we learn from Ray.

I find it difficult to know where to draw the line.

Geoff
 

[mharrell08]

Marques, your reply is helpful but, for me at least, it leaves the question unanswered.

Quote from Ray from your link:

The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER.  They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT.  They were sinning against WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH. 

So if we bring this up to date, does the few include people like John Hagee and leaders of churches who know the truth but are afraid of telling their congregations for fear of losing income?

Does the few include people like my friends who sent me the email, to whom I tell the truth but they choose to reject it, or even my wife who appears to be frightened of the truths that we learn from Ray.

I find it difficult to know where to draw the line.

Geoff

These scriptures testify of these few:

John 3:1-2  There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 11:47-48  Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

Matt 26:59  Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Mark 14:56  For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together

Isa 5:20  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

These are those who call good evil...who call these spiritual truths evil when they KNOW they are good. Most of your friends are simply blind...I doubt they are like the Pharisees who would rather keep a high position with their followers at the expense and detriment to the Gospel.

You'll know when to draw the line with people like these by the spirit of God...He leads us into ALL truth [John 16:13].


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Geoff,

The way I see this as I have learned from Ray.

Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Mat 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I think that the blasphemy against the Spirit (unpardonable sin) applies to a very narrow group of people, as Ray has said, very few.  Because it firstly applies to those who have to some degree a knowledge of the truth, now those Scribes and Pharisees did and Ray gave the Scripture that shows this to be so.

Quote
Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews] KNOW that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; (John 3:1-2)

Now you have asked;

So if we bring this up to date, does the few include people like John Hagee and leaders of churches who know the truth but are afraid of telling their congregations for fear of losing income?

Does the few include people like my friends who sent me the email, to whom I tell the truth but they choose to reject it, or even my wife who appears to be frightened of the truths that we learn from Ray.

Do these people you speak of really know/comprehend the truth?  Just because this truth is spoken to a person does not mean they understand it, like it says the Scribes and Pharisees 'knew' that Jesus was sent from God.  Now they knew Jesus' works were of God, but because they feared loosing their authority over the people, so they accused His works as being of the devil!  

Mark 3:22  And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He has Beelzebub," and, "By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons."

That is blasphemy, which is showing great disrespect willfully and knowingly against these truths or the Spirit of God that teaches these truths.  Quite different from what people of the world/church that scoff at or reject the truth are doing.

Another thing is they had no remorse for saying that about Jesus either... they went on the have Him crucified!  Now Ray said, "if you have to ask what does this mean, then we probable haven't done it."  If someone is afraid that they have in some way committed the unpardonable sin, than certainly they have not, because where does the fear of maybe having committed it come from?  Those Scribes and Pharisees did not have a fear of God for what they said.  When the spirit is indwelling then it would give you this fear of disrespecting God and committing the unpardonable sin, because you know Him through that Spirit.  So if His spirit is working in you than you would never show that kind of disrespect towards God.  It's just a very narrow little group that have heard this truth and know it to be truth and go on to "speak against it."  I don't know if any church leaders have heard this truth and believe it and then go on to teach heresy, if they do...

Luke 11:52 Woe to you who are learned in the law! for you take away the key of knowledge-you yourselves do not enter, and those who are entering you prevent." (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[9440geoff]

Thank you Kat and Marques. I have a much clearer understanding now of who the 'very few' were, are or could be. As you said Marques, only the Spirit of God can ultimately show us who these people are today.

Geoff