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[SandyFla]

I woke up earlier than usual this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep. The fact that Tropical Storm Alberto was due to make landfall had nothing to do with it.

One thing kept going through my mind, and continues to disturb me: When someone like Abu Musab al Zarqawi is killed, we are saddened. There is a 7-page thread on this forum decrying that military action. Yet, when this same man sawed off Nick Berg’s head with a dull knife; or when stories of Saddam Hussein forcing parents to watch as their children are tortured and killed, or are blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs and are thrown off rooftops face-first; or when a suicide bomber kills himself along with women and children; we express very little sorrow for those victims, or condemnation for their crimes. Nothing even CLOSE to the condemnation the military faces. Why is that?

I did a search of this forum, and there is no thread of support or sorrow for victims of terrorists, so I am starting one. Aren’t they “the least of these� (Matthew 25:45)? Or has our anti-military beliefs clouded our judgment, so that it’s more sorrowful and wrong when the troops kill someone?

Last fall a group of Mennonites on a peaceful mission were captured by terrorists. One of them was killed. I saw no outcry of grief for him on here. Then, a few months ago, the US military rescued those remaining and brought them home. When the men talked to the press, did they thank the military? No. They thanked their captors for releasing them … only thing is, they weren’t released. Military troops risked their lives to get them out and bring them home.

It seems our anti-military stance gives a pass to the terrorists while labeling the military as the evildoers.

If it’s wrong for the military to kill, then it’s also wrong for terrorists to kill. Jesus loves the victims of terrorism as much as He loves the terrorists. Do we? Am I wrong?

Sandy  

[gmik]

I agree Sandy.

[love_magnified]

I have a hard time with it too. Jesus says, "do not resist evil, but repay evil with kindness." His words should be seared into our hearts, not disregarded. But, what if we had not intervened in Germany in WW2? I have had a hard time with it. I guess that is what it means to be separated from the world. The world will hate us for not supporting war, but if it is for his sake it is worth it to be hated.

[Sorin]

Honestly Sandy I felt extremely saddened by Nick Berg's death and of course all those 9/11 victims. But I didn't feel the same way about Zarqawi. Where does it say in Scripture that we have to feel sorry for those kinds of people when they die? How many people were sad to see Hitler pass away? Maybe a few Nazis, but that's about it. The way I look at it Zarqawi got off easy compared to his victims. And no I did not "decry" that military action. That's their job, if they're not going to protect us then you might as well start buying your turbans now. I don't "sugar-coat" anything.  

Take care,
Sorin

[YellowStone]

Sandy what a truly heartfelt post. I thank God that you had the courage to say what needed to be said.

I have been thinking about this: "do not resist evil, but repay evil with kindness."

Perhaps it does make sense. Perhaps we should not resist it, but embrace it; instead of ignoring the likes of Nick Berg, we should repay evil with kindness. For one part evil, we gladly give two parts kindness back.

Back to whom? Not Satan, but those whom bare the brunt of the evil. For example, I have heard many say that our military and governments are murders!!  Are they Satan? No.....So where then is "repaying evil with kindness"

It's not enough to ignore those that are paying with their lives; just because we are to love our enemies. Sandy, you nailed it. Talk about a two edge sword! We cannot show mercy to those of another nation who are being brutally terrorized, because of love for those who are comitting the crimes.

Are we tolerating evil? Is that what we were commanded?

Not according to Paul, who instructed:

Rom 12:9

[Let] love be without dissimulation (Let Love not decieve). Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. [/list:u]Do you get it? When we tolerate evil, our love becomes decietful.

Peter admonishes us on how we must love:

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren,

[see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: [/list:u]Their is a massive contradiction of terms here. We must love our brothers and sisters of God with a pure heart; however, we (each and everyone of us) is to abhor (find repugnant) evil.

I think this changes "Loving ones enemies somewhat"

Thoughts, comments welcome.

Sandy, thank you.

May God Bless You All,

YellowStone.

[love_magnified]

It doesn't change "love your enemies" for me. I can abhor evil and still repay evil with kindness. In fact the only way to repay evil with kindness IS to hate evil. I don't see how hating evil and loving both our brothers and sisters and enemies is a contradiction at all in any way.

[YellowStone]

Me either

Not if you hate evil.

Love,

Yellowstone

[carol v]

Great thread Sandy. When I first came to this forum quite awhile back, a young soldier in Iraq was being condemned and insulted for his service to his country instead of loved and nurtured through his trip through Babylon. Being the mother of two sons, I couldn't help but see my sons as this young man coming to the forum only to be condemned.

The sarcasm and condemnation aimed at this young man was only from a few members but they seemed to "hate" this young man alot more than the terrorists and serial killers like Zarqawi.

Hitler, serial killers, an endless list of evil abroad and at home -- are we to disband all military and the local police because we love our enemies. Are we not to protect our children, our families and ourselves at all? Are we not to prevent further victims?

I don't have the answers but it's questions like these that make "praying without ceasing" the best idea of all.

And I wonder what became of that young soldier who was rejected here at the forum.

carol

[love_magnified]

Hi Carol, I never met this soldier, but I am sorry he was treated so unkindly. After coming to understand UR, I have found out the hard way that revelation can bring a hard heart to those who have no use for love (ie physical healings in physical Jerusalem did nothing for those who had no use for love either.)

I don't have all the answers either. Personally I don't think I could ever kill anyone and I am not sure about how to protect myself. I think protecting myself is something I want to avoid. But as for other people, it is hard to know. It just takes prayer to know what to do.

[dogcombat]

Since I posted on the Zaquawi thread.  I want to make clear that I was NOT implying being against military action against Al-Quaida (Though I'll withhold comments on the War itself), but that I found no joy in his death.  I posted the verses fromProverbs 24 that said we are NOT to rejoice when the enemy falls or be glad when they stumble.  To me, it underscored the admonition to "love your enemies".   For if you only love those who only love you, what value is there?

I haven't forgotten victims like Nick Berg, or even those who perished on 9/11.  I pray for all involed in the war on terror.

[mongoose]

Sandy, I agree with you.  Jesus loves both the victims of terrorism and the terrorists and the military and all of us.  I am saddened by every death that results from both military actions and terrorism and other acts of violence.  How sad is it that people just don't understand a better way.  I was heartbroken on 9/11 as we all were.  I used to live in New York and had been to the world trade center many times and have a relative working at the pentagon (who survived).  I was horrified to see the pictures of people rejoicing at those deaths.  But I was also very upset when Saddam Hussain's sons and grandson were killed in a firefight and saw people here in the us cheering their deaths standing in front of churches.  Yes, they did a lot of horrible things but they were someone's child.  I couldn't help but think about how it might feel to have your children killed and watch other people celebrate those deaths.  I am against war personally but the military personnel are doing what they were ordered by their country and what they think is right.  We can still love the people while not liking the war.  It all boils down to this for me: every one of those individuals is one of God's precious children and some other human being's son or daughter.  Their deaths, whether through terrorism or war, will break hearts.  Yet, since God works everything after the council of His will, this must too be part of His plan and all those involved are there because they are supposed to be.  How can anyone condem them for being as they must be?  It makes me sad to see all the pain and suffering that goes on in the world but knowing that God will ultimately work even these things for good and everyone will learn His truth makes me hopeful and full of joy.  Knowing that and remembering that this is all part of His plan allows me to try to accept what is going on as somehow necessary, try to see the other side of the story, and love those involved simply because they are His.

[SandyFla]

Thank you all for your responses.

I think you pretty much got the idea of what I am trying to convey.

As some have asked, what would I do if someone were trying to kill my family? To simply let them do it because I must love my enemy would be akin to hating my family. I am supposed to love my family also by protecting them from those who would do them harm.

I Timothy 5:8 says: "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." I believe that means we should not only provide for them monetarily, but also provide protection when needed.

Expanding that further, the military is trying to provide safety for the Iraqis and also for the rest of the world. If we can stabilize that country, it should have a profound effect on the rest of the Middle East.

The big question is, how far should we take "loving our enemies"? Should we continue allowing them to torture and kill people, or is stopping them (even if it means killing them) the more loving thing to do when you look at the big picture? Tough questions.

Actually, the answer is fairly easy.

[love_magnified]

Mike talked about that. What if someone is attacking our family. If someone did that, I would start ministering to them, and offer myself in their place. If they persisted in harming them, I would take action. I don't think there is anything wrong with physically restraining someone, but taking action with a desire to kill them with bloodlust in our hearts is another matter. Knocking someone down and taking their weapon is not a matter of attempting to strike back at him out of revenge. You never know when God might use you in a situation like that. It would take God working through your flesh to do it.

[rvhill]

Gandhi believed he could defeat even the likes of Hitler, with Non violent civil disobedience. Although, not with out many casualties. I am what is called a natural born killer. I don't really have any natural impulsion about not killing other people, and I even enjoy violence.  On the other hand I seem to be blessed, and do not suffer from any of the motivation most people kill for. I don't seem to have greed or jealousy as a part of my make up.  For me to kill or not to kill is a simple intellectual exercise. Killing someone is just like any other sin.

[worm]

Expanding that further, the military is trying to provide safety for the Iraqis and also for the rest of the world. If we can stabilize that country, it should have a profound effect on the rest of the Middle East

?
Sandy...what kinda reasoning is this?

the US military killing people to "make it safe for the Iraqis"...they are KILLING the Iraqis...how is that helping?
the US military is directly responsible for destabilising Iraq...it opened the door for all kinds of evils and terrorists and now the Iraqis are suffering even more! GREAT JOB America!

and how is the military making it safer for the world?
you really think the world is safer now?
maybe it is safe there on your couch in the USA...I don't see it happening anywhere else...

don't you know that violence breeds violence? it grows exponentially

and as for "doing favours for the rest of the world"...yes...THANK YOU America!...we have to pay 200% more for petrol/gas now that you've invaded Iraq...before the war crude oil was selling at $35 a barrel...now it is selling for over $72...how do you think this pans out in a 3rd world contry already struggling?

and for making the Middle East safe...safe for whom? for Israel?
that state of murderers who takes other people's land by force?
the children of Judah stealing the birthright of Joseph?

yes...I DO see God's hand in this...the Prophecies will finally be fulfilled...Jerusalem will soon be NO MORE...just like Sodom and Gemorra is NO MORE...and the Harlot will take all down with her

Sandy...this is a time for nations to repent...else all the war-mongers will meet the same fate...and all those nations will fall

EVERYONE...EVERY NATION that does not follow the Prince of Peace will meet the same doom...as they've brought judgement upon themselves

[Sorin]

Worm,


You got any proof that US soldiers are killing innocent Iraqis? Or are you just making that up because you are on the Muslims side? And what did you want
Bush to do after 9/11, nothing? Maybe he should have paid for the next terrorists' plane ticket, maybe then you would have been happy? Why doesn't Bush just hand over America to Bin Laden, since that seems to be what you want.

[YellowStone]

?
Sandy...what kinda reasoning is this?

the US military killing people to  "make it safe for the Iraqis "...they are KILLING the Iraqis...how is that helping?
the US military is directly responsible for destabilising Iraq...it opened the door for all kinds of evils and terrorists and now the Iraqis are suffering even more! GREAT JOB America!

Mat 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as

[it is] in heaven.[/list:u]Worn, perhaps you belive God is Not in control? That his will is NOT being done.

God is Love,
YellowStone

[/list]

[YellowStone]

Worm,


You got any proof that US soldiers are killing innocent Iraqis? Or are you just making that up because you are on the Muslims side? And what did you want
Bush to do after 9/11, nothing? Maybe he should have paid for the next terrorists' plane ticket, maybe then you would have been happy? Why doesn't Bush just hand over America to Bin Laden, since that seems to be what you want.

Yeah Sorin, lets sea the cards in the table "face up!"

YellowStone

[Sorin]

Expanding that further, the military is trying to provide safety for the Iraqis and also for the rest of the world. If we can stabilize that country, it should have a profound effect on the rest of the Middle East

?
Sandy...what kinda reasoning is this?

Better reasoning than yours.

the US military killing people to "make it safe for the Iraqis"...they are KILLING the Iraqis...how is that helping?

Prove it.  

the US military is directly responsible for destabilising Iraq...it opened the door for all kinds of evils and terrorists and now the Iraqis are suffering even more! GREAT JOB America!

Oh yeah they're suffering even more. That's why they were dancing in the streets when Sadam Hussien was no longer in power? Please!

and how is the military making it safer for the world?
you really think the world is safer now?
maybe it is safe there on your couch in the USA...I don't see it happening anywhere else...

It's called a 'process', the war is not over yet. Duh. It's like me yelling at my mehcanic "how are you making my car better, you took the whole engine apart ?"

don't you know that violence breeds violence? it grows exponentially

You speak as a fool. You think if Bush would have sent Bin Laden a thank you card for 9/11 that the world would have been a less violent or safer place? Like I said, it's a process. Just like the mess this world is in now, it's a process, see a pattern here? Why not yell at God and say "what's the point of all this evil in the world, can't we just be in heaven now?"

and as for "doing favours for the rest of the world"...yes...THANK YOU America!...we have to pay 200% more for petrol/gas now that you've invaded Iraq...before the war crude oil was selling at $35 a barrel...now it is selling for over $72...how do you think this pans out in a 3rd world contry already struggling?

Sure blame everything on America, why don't you just move to Iraq? Better yet, why don't you become a martyr for them? I hear they are currently accepting applications.

and for making the Middle East safe...safe for whom? for Israel?
that state of murderers who takes other people's land by force?
the children of Judah stealing the birthright of Joseph?

Now your blaming Israel? How many times do you hear "and yet another Jew has hijacked a plane, or another Jew blew himself up and others"?
It's always the Muslims! Bush wants to make it  safer for all, not just for Israel. The entire middle East. Like I said it's a process.

yes...I DO see God's hand in this...the Prophecies will finally be fulfilled...Jerusalem will soon be NO MORE...just like Sodom and Gemorra is NO MORE...and the Harlot will take all down with her

Sandy...this is a time for nations to repent...else all the war-mongers will meet the same fate...and all those nations will fall

Oh "war-mongers"? Well you're a terrorist-monger!

EVERYONE...EVERY NATION that does not follow the Prince of Peace will meet the same doom...as they've brought judgement upon themselves

Exactly! That's why Iraq (and the rest) is getting what it has brought upon it's self. You think Muslims follow the "Prince of Peace"? I speak as a fool.

[zander]

Guys there is probably no point in debating this topic.  We all have different opinions whether they are based on fact or not, you wont change peoples' minds.

I have my stance on this war, but i would be wasting my breath debating it here (or anywhere probably for that matter).