> General Discussions
1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
Lorine:
???
I had a thought after I read Reply #2 from Samson. I hope this doesn't get too far off the subject.
He mentioned in his list of those Resurrected back as Fleshly Human
Beings #5 "The Saints that were raised from the tomb so all could
see when Jesus was on the cross". Matt. 27:52+53 says "And the
graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection".
They never came out until after his resurrection. Could they not
be the first part of the First Resurrection and have risen with spiritual bodies. Jesus was the firstfruit of those that slept, but they never rose until after his resurrection. Could this go along with "He ascended on high and led captivity captive". Jesus told
Mary "Touch me not I have not yet ascended". Could the old testament saints be resurrected already as the first part of the first
resurrection. What does it mean "He ascended on high and led captivity captive"
Hope you can help,
Lorine
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Lorine on October 28, 2009, 06:46:21 PM --- ???
I had a thought after I read Reply #2 from Samson. I hope this doesn't get too far off the subject.
He mentioned in his list of those Resurrected back as Fleshly Human
Beings #5 "The Saints that were raised from the tomb so all could
see when Jesus was on the cross". Matt. 27:52+53 says "And the
graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection".
They never came out until after his resurrection. Could they not
be the first part of the First Resurrection and have risen with spiritual bodies.
--- End quote ---
Hello Lorine,
The saints that were resurrected were risen in physical bodies and later died. Only at the 'Last Trump' will the dead be raised in spiritual bodies:
1 Cor 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Like Paul states, only Christ has immortality [1 Tim 6:16]
--- Quote from: Lorine on October 28, 2009, 06:46:21 PM --- Jesus was the firstfruit of those that slept, but they never rose until after his resurrection. Could this go along with "He ascended on high and led captivity captive".
--- End quote ---
These saints were for a testament that God could raise anyone from the dead...again, as Paul states, the firstfruits are gathered at 'His coming'
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
--- Quote from: Lorine on October 28, 2009, 06:46:21 PM --- Jesus told Mary "Touch me not I have not yet ascended".
--- End quote ---
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,840.msg6639.html#msg6639):
Dear William:
A friend asked me about this just a couple of weeks ago. The Father resides in "the heavens." The heavens are a realm, not a geographical location.
Jesus did not say "touch me not," as we have proof to the contrary in this very same incident recorded in Matt. 28:9-10:
"And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And the came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET [clearly they WERE 'touching' Him], and worshipped Him."
The first definition of the Greek word 'haptomia' is "to ATTACH oneself." As we clearly see in their "Holding Him by the feet." Rotherham translates this: "...be not DETAINING me..." James Moffatt translates it: "Cease CLINING to Me." The American Standard Version has: "Stop HOLDING ON to Me..."
Apparently, Jesus was resurrected just moments before the women arrived at the tomb. When they finally recognized Him as Lord, they GRABBED HIM and wouldn't let Him go--worshipping (as He was clearly resurrected from the dead, hence, truly, the Son of God).
The thing that Jesus told His disciples a couple of days earlier was that He must RETURN to His Father. And the reason was two-fold: [1] To receive BACK the glory which He had with His Father from the beginning, and [2] He told them that unless He "went away (to the father) the Comforter would not come to them.
Jesus appeared three time to His disciples within the first 12 hours: [1] To the women at the tomb, {2] To the two men traveling on the road to Emaus, and [3] Sunday evening when the disciples (save Thomas) where gathered together behind closed doors. At that very time, Jesus gave his Apostles (not His all of His disciples, but His APOSTLES) the Holy Spirit:
"Then the same day at evening being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut...He said unto them Peace be unto you: as My Father has sent Me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed OLN THEM, AND SAID UNTO THEM, receive ye the holy spirit..but Thomas was not with them" (John 20:19-24).
Talk to you later, Lary,
Ray
--- Quote from: Lorine on October 28, 2009, 06:46:21 PM --- Could the old testament saints be resurrected already as the first part of the first
resurrection.
--- End quote ---
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.msg6638.html#msg6638):
Dear Dave:
Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.
What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing! And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:18). Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ. "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes. Are we 'saved by faith?' NO--'By GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8. Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life? NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).
Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins? NO. No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']" (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).
Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?' Answer: "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN H-I-M [JESUS]" (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.
Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.
God be with you,
Ray
--- Quote from: Lorine on October 28, 2009, 06:46:21 PM --- What does it mean "He ascended on high and led captivity captive"
Hope you can help,
Lorine
--- End quote ---
This was a quote from Psalms 68:
Ps 68:18-19 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
Here's another scriptural witness
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Hope this helps,
Marques
P.S. Welcome to the forum :)
Kat:
Hi Lorine,
--- Quote ---Jesus was the firstfruit of those that slept, but they never rose until after his resurrection. Could this go along with "He ascended on high and led captivity captive". Jesus told
Mary "Touch me not I have not yet ascended". Could the old testament saints be resurrected already as the first part of the first
resurrection. What does it mean "He ascended on high and led captivity captive"
--- End quote ---
Here is an email that give a really good explanation of what it meant by "He ascended on high and led captivity captive."
http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ---------------
Now then, just how did Jesus, "lead captivity captive" (Eph. 4:08)?
This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18. After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."
There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8. Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse: "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind." So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.
Now Strong's is correct in that "captivity" does, make captive, take captive or captures. And those who ARE made captive, taken captive, or captured, are called "CAPTIVES." Hope I didn't loose you yet.
And so "captivity" is the instrumentality that brings about "captured captives," if you will. God is here labeling all the evils of the world under the one word "captivity." There is a new spiritual law mentioned under the New Covenant called "The Law of Liberty" (James 1:25). Notice that while the "false prophets" of II Pet. 2:1, "...promise them LIBERTY, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the SAME is he brought IN BONDAGE" (Verse 20). Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leads into captivity shall GO into captivity...."
Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES. Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL. Just how did He do this? (1) "He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship! "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)?
The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish? EVERYTHING! John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF! And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!
And of the immediate gifts Christ gave, we read:
"And He gave some apostles and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the PERFECTING [MATURING] of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).
And finally this:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the [spiritually] blind, to set at LIBERTY them that are bruised [crushed by the burden of this world, which Christ OVERCAME], To preach the acceptable year of the Lord ... And He [Jesus] began to say unto them, 'THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS" (Luke 4:18-19 & 21).
Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
daywalker:
--- Quote from: EKnight on October 08, 2009, 09:06:30 PM ---Oh Yes Mark!!! How could I have forgotten??!!!! I have read more than once that Christ being the firstfruit meaning conversion of the Spirit and that those who were resurrected from the dead were only made alive in the flesh. How foolish I feel :-[ :-[
--- Quote ---I do not see death used as a definition here.
--- End quote ---
But regarding the definition, 1 Cor. 15:20 " Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing.
It just looks to me that the above scripture defines dead as reposing within the sentence itself. We know that Christ actually died so therefore reposing must mean dead. No? Otherwise Christ was only the firstfruit of those "resting" according to strongs definition. Right?
I hope this came out right, I was interrupted while trying to convey all this.
Eileen
--- End quote ---
Hey Eileen,
Just wanted to add these Scriptures to further confirm what Mark had stated:
From the Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Daywalker 8)
Lorine:
???
Very knowledgeable answers, I learned much.
One more question though. What does it mean when it says
"Jesus preached to the souls that were in prison that were sometimes disobedient in the days of Noah"?
I don't understand when he did this.
Thanks,
Lorine
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