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[lauriellen]

i have been re-reading through this thread this morning and am still wrestling with a thought that i have dared not even put into words, but, now i am just going to put it out there and hopefully get some answers.......many many times in Rays writings and audios he has said something to the effect that God is love, and would it be love if He were torturing my grandmother in hell for eternity?....that God is love and hell is the exact opposite of that love......that is really easy for me to grasp. the LOVING, MERCIFUL GOD.
the problem i wrestle with is the SUFFERING i see in THIS LIFE! isn't that also the exact opposite of the love?  how can God be showing me love, when He caused my sons death?  how can God be showing Jennie love when He caused her to be raped at 3 years old? and on and on it goes.....i am NOT having a pitty party for myself (tho He slay me, yet i will trust Him)....i just don't understand how to reconcile this "love" and the caused sufferring i see around me......it is hard to love and trust someone who you know may smack you down, or the ones you love at any time....... and yes, i know we are His creation to do with what He will, but i guess i just don't understand that kind of love.....i am looking at this with my human eyes, and i just know that most parents would NEVER even think of causing their children this kind of pain....
help me understand this. i think it was easier to grasp that we 'caused' this sufferring ourselves by our choices and sin.
thanks,
lauriellen

[aqrinc]

Hi Lauriellen,

Here below, is one answer from Scripture.

Heb 12: 1-17 (LITV)
1  So therefore we also, having so great a cloud of witnesses lying around us, having laid aside every weight and the easily surrounding sin, through patience let us also run the race set before us,
2  looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, Jesus, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, "and sat down at the right" of the throne of God. Psa. 110:1

3  For consider Him who had endured such gainsaying of sinners against Himself, that you do not grow weary, fainting in your souls.
4  You did not yet resist unto blood, wrestling against sin.

5  And you have forgotten the exhortation which He speaks with you, as with sons, "My sons, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor faint while being corrected by Him.
6  For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines, and whips every son whom He receives." Prov. 3:11, 12

7  If you endure discipline, God is dealing with you as with sons; for who is the son whom a father does not discipline?
8  But if you are without discipline, of which all have become sharers, then you are bas-tards, and not sons.

9  Furthermore, indeed we have had fathers of our flesh as correctors, and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits, and we shall live?
10  For they truly disciplined us for a few days according to the thing seeming good to them; but He for our profit, in order for us to partake of His holiness.

11  And all discipline for the present indeed does not seem to be joyous, but grievous; but afterward it gives back peaceable fruit of righteousness to the ones having been exercised by it.

12  Because of this, "straighten the hands" hanging alongside, "and the enfeebled knees;"
13  "and make straight tracks for your feet," that the lame not be turned aside, but rather healed. Isa. 35:3; Prov. 4:26
14  Eagerly pursue peace and holiness with all, without which no one will see the Lord,
15  watching diligently that not any lack from the grace of God, that "no root of bitterness growing up" may crowd "in on you", and through this many be defiled; Deut. 29:18

16  that not any fornicator, or profane one, as Esau, who for one meal gave up his birthright;
17  for you know also that afterwards desiring to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place of repentance, although seeking it out with tears. Gen. 27:36-39

george .

 

[Marky Mark]

Hello lauriellen.

 We do not know all things or all ways of our Creator.That is Gods plan for now. This does not mean that there is not purpose to creation and of the things that we as humans need to suffer through in order to become righteous sons and daughters of the Father. I believe that it is out of Gods Love for His creation that we must learn an experience of good and evil to make one humble to the ways of the Lord.
  As difficult as what this life we experience in the flesh seems for the moment, I do not believe Gods Love for us is at fault.

Email reply from Ray. Hope it helps.

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#suffer

Dear Jake:

It is true that there are many mysteries that we do not understand. And yet, there is much that we do understand, at least in part.

God is GOOD.  What IS good?  How does anyone BECOME GOOD?

Take a very close look at ANY VIRTUE, Jake, and see HOW IT BECAME A VIRTUE! Is "truthfulness" a virtue if everyone always was and always will be "truthful?" No, because there is NOTHING TO COMPARE IT WITH!  Is "patience" a virtue that one can buy at a department store?  Can "patience" be developed and achieved QUICKLY AND WITHOUT DISTRESS?  I think not.

There is nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING that we can come to understand as part of our knowledge, that is not understood by how that bit of knowledge CONTRASTS with OTHER pieces of knowledge. Everything that exists is only understood by contrasts.  How does one know what "big" is if he doesn't know what "small" is, and vice-a-versa?  How can we say something is rough if we don't have any concept of smooth?  Up is only up in relation or contrast to down.   Light is contrasted with darkness, etc., etc., etc.

Do you see where this is going?  If we are to appreciate "good," it is essential that we have an experience of "EVIL."  If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!

And so, God in His infinite wisdom, has provided all of these things--we call it CREATION--so that mankind might experience all that is necessary to humble, educate, experience, and appreciate, the wonderful things that God has prepared for us.

All the ugly, evil, and misery of life can be likened to the scaffolding of a building. While creation of the new building is in progress, the scaffolding is an eye-sore, and serves NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE except the actual creation of the building. But, when the beautiful building is completed, we tear down the ugly scaffolding and throw it away--it serves no more useful purpose to our completed building, EVER.  And so we read that even DEATH, the LAST ENEMY, will be ABOLISHED (I Cor. 15:26)!!

I hope this helps your understanding a little better.

Sincerely,

Ray





Peace...Mark

[Akira329]

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2Co 1:3  Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co 1:5  For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Co 1:6  And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Co 1:7  And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2Co 1:8  For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Co 1:9  But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10  Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Heb 2:10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Trust in God
Antaiwan

[EKnight]

i am looking at this with my human eyes, and i just know that most parents would NEVER even think of causing their children this kind of pain....
help me understand this. i think it was easier to grasp that we 'caused' this sufferring ourselves by our choices and sin.
thanks,
lauriellen

Lauriellen,

I understand what you are saying.  I have wondered these things too.  The scripture everyone has given you should be comforting but I understand how it may not be.  It's one of those things that's easier said than done. 

As you may or may not know, my son has been suffering through chemo and surgeries these past five months.  He is such a good kid-never drank or smoked or did drugs like most kids his age(21)- and yet he ends up with cancer.  As a parent, watching him suffer a seemingly undeserving trial, has been a trial itself.  I remember saying to my husband "if this cancer brought Jack closer to God, would you be more willing to accept it?" and we both agreed that the suffering would be worth it.  But so far, that has not been the outcome so now we are left wondering what was the point of all this?  There could be a million reasons for Jack's suffering and for ours and I believe that is the hard part-not knowing what God's plan is and maybe never seeing or understanding the whys of this present world.  And that's where faith and hope need to take over.  I know, again, it's easier said than done.  I'm not sure there are any words or scriptures that are able to comfort us at times like this, only God in His infinite wisdom knows and only God can grant us the comfort we need and only in His time.

 So pray fervently for understanding, hope and faith.  I pray God grants you your requests.

Eileen

[aqrinc]

Either we Believe and Trust GOD and our Lord Jesus Christ, or we trust our sight and feelings.


1Co 15: 45-58 (LITV)
45  So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
46  But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

47  The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
48  Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.

49  And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
52  In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54  But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8

55  "O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" Hos. 13:14
56  Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law;
57  but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

58  So that, my beloved brothers, you be firm, immovable, abounding in the work of the Lord always, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.

2Co 5: 6-10 (ROTHERHAM)
6 Having good courage, therefore, at all times, and knowing that—remaining at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord,—

7 By faith, are we walking, not by sight;—

8 We have good courage, however, and are well pleased—rather to be away from home, out of the body, and to come home, unto the Lord.

9 Wherefore also we are ambitious—whether at home, or away from home, to be, well-pleasing unto him.

10 For, we all, must needs be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get back the things done by means of the body, according to the things which he practised, whether good or corrupt.

george.

[lauriellen]

as i said in my first email, i do fully trust God, even thought He slay me, i will trust Him.....even though i do not understand His methods, i will trust Him....
it is hard for me to pray for the protection or healing of my family and friends anymore, because i know that i may be praying against His will, so i pray for His will to be done, and the strength to endure....that is one of the scriptures that makes perfect sense to me...."he who endures to the end shall be saved".
...because this life is like an endurance race, and sometimes i feel all i (and others) are doing is enduring.
everyone agrees that correction and discipline, done in the "right" way are good things,....but even in our earthy state, we recognize the difference between discipline and abuse.  if any parent is convicted of beating, raping or otherwise abusing their child, the courts take the child away and put the parent in jail.  the parent is considered the worst kind of criminal.  if a woman is battered and abused by her husband, he can go to jail, and society thinks the woman would be insane not to remove herself from that relationship.  our society puts rapists, murderers, abusers of all kinds in jail and consider them sick individuals for doing these things. i accept a certain amount of correction and discipline, but i think we all can honestly say that there are some things in life that humans suffer that are so unspeakable, so horrific, that it defies our ability to understand.(an essay my grandfather wrote of his experiences in the Korean war and the Bataan death march are a good example...most can not read it without breaking  down into tears it is so horrible).   i am in no way  complaining against God, who is soveriegn, and does not owe me or anyone else any kind of explaination of what He chooses to do, i just want to UNDERSTAND Him, so that i can love Him, purely and with my WHOLE heart.  i don't want a little shadow in the corner of my heart always there saying "how could You do this? if you REALLY loved me, you wouldn't make us suffer so."
i realize that i may never have this understanding in this lifetime....but i will keep searching and groping for Him to fully reveal Himself to me. one of my deepest desires is to help others love and trust in Gods mercy, to help others see that they can  lean on Him in times of trouble, i want everyone to see that He only is our source of hope and strength...but how can i do this if i myself have any shadow of doubt?
thank you for letting me vent,
lauriellen

[arion]

I don't try to figure it out anymore.  The why's and wondering of why so much pain and suffering of both the righteous and unrighteous is beyond me.  Especially when you see the young and innocent and the things that so many of them are forced to endure.  I do know a few things though.  I know God is good and I know he works all things for the good to those that he calls.  And I also know that eventually even the suffering of those who are not called/choosen in this life will eventually turn out for the good in the ages to come.  It is enough to know that it's all going to end up right in the end.  With that sure knowledge of the end state of all his creation it allows me to not have to dwell on why the evil in this life too much. 

[Roy Martin]

I use to ask these kind of questions when I didn't believe in God. I use to say that only an idiot and fool could believe in or love such a God. All the people He killed in the old testament, men women and children. All the deaths of boys just so Moses could deliver people out of Egypt of which most of them died on the way. This was not a God of love, but a God of unmeasured violence and death and suffering. That's what I use to see and think about God. Well I don't think that anymore, but I have to say that I can't love God the way He loves me. I say I love Him, but sometimes I'm not really sure. There are times that I love Him a lot, but that's usually when things are going good. I never dis-love Him. The point I'm making is that I can't love God on my own, just like I can't love a child molester or murderer. God tells me to, but I can't and don't, and might not ever in this life time. I want to want to, and I ask God to help me love them as He does. I admit to God that I don't love Him the way I want to, but I want to want to. I do indeed trust Him, but that wasn't always the case. It took me years to trust and have faith and even start to believe that He was indeed real, but it was God that gave it all to me. I find it very comforting to be honest with God when I talk to Him. I ask Him anything I want to ask Him. One thing for sure is we are not going to understand everything in this life. God gave up His own son to be tortured to death. His reasons are far beyond our understanding. I don't need to know everything. We are just passing through. Death to the one that dies seems horrible and very heart breaking to us, but their trials are over in this harsh and cruel world. They are not sad and want to come back. They are sleeping and at peace for a time.
 These trials are hard and extremely severe for some such as Jennie and those that lose a child early in life. We might not understand or see Gods love in this life, but its certain that we will see it, and it will be something we can't even come close to imagining.

Roy

[gmik]

What a wonderful thread!  We can never get enough of this kind of sharing!  Thats why Paul said we look thru a glass darkly, we forget and have to look again (and again....)
Stick to the Word, be truthful and honest always, but keep your heart soft toward Him.

My Gosh, who among us don't wonder about these things??  Sometimes more than others.  Why are there a kabillion universes out there???  Why did God come up w/ this plan???  We ALL would have rather have peace and love on the earth at all times....why such violence since the dawn of times?   Just acknowledge that we sometimes think these things, but KNOW that really these aren't the questions to be asking.

Your responses have been amazing.  Thank you all.

GOD IS SOVEREIGN, and we aren't........

[Marlene]

I am like you Lauriellen. I just want God's will . I know he loves me and will be just. Just, because we want him to heal someone does not mean it is his plan. Just, because we want something, does not mean it is good for us. I just cling on him to help me endure. God is going to do what is best, even if we don't think it is. Sometime, this will all make sense to us. For sure it keeps us humble.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Pax Vobiscum]

Oh, it's been MUCH too long....!

Reconciling human suffering and God is very difficult.  Here are a couple of points to lob out there....

A very old smart guy (16th or 17th century) named Leibniz used the term theodicy to refer to this seeming paradox:  God is omnipotent.  God is love.  There is innocent suffering. 

It appears paradoxical that these three things can coexist.

Another point to ponder is from Epicurus who said, "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?  The he is impotent.  Is He able but not willing?  Then he is malevolent.  Is He both able and willing?  Whence then, evil?"

To explore Biblical constructs, you will find suffering as a consequence of sin, suffering as a lesson about sin, and even suffering of many innocents for various reasons, even sport!

God and suffering becomes as circular as God and free-will.  Ray was explaining the problem lies in our perception of "good" and "not-good."  I would challenge you to consider the terms "innocent" and "not innocent."  Best Biblical advice I have is to check Ecclesiastes and deal with suffering rather than try and understand it.  Your sanity will thank you.

Good Luck,

Pax

[Akira329]

as i said in my first email, i do fully trust God, even thought He slay me, i will trust Him.....even though i do not understand His methods, i will trust Him....
it is hard for me to pray for the protection or healing of my family and friends anymore, because i know that i may be praying against His will, so i pray for His will to be done, and the strength to endure....that is one of the scriptures that makes perfect sense to me...."he who endures to the end shall be saved".
...because this life is like an endurance race, and sometimes i feel all i (and others) are doing is enduring.
everyone agrees that correction and discipline, done in the "right" way are good things,....but even in our earthy state, we recognize the difference between discipline and abuse.  if any parent is convicted of beating, raping or otherwise abusing their child, the courts take the child away and put the parent in jail.  the parent is considered the worst kind of criminal.  if a woman is battered and abused by her husband, he can go to jail, and society thinks the woman would be insane not to remove herself from that relationship.  our society puts rapists, murderers, abusers of all kinds in jail and consider them sick individuals for doing these things. i accept a certain amount of correction and discipline, but i think we all can honestly say that there are some things in life that humans suffer that are so unspeakable, so horrific, that it defies our ability to understand.(an essay my grandfather wrote of his experiences in the Korean war and the Bataan death march are a good example...most can not read it without breaking  down into tears it is so horrible).   i am in no way  complaining against God, who is soveriegn, and does not owe me or anyone else any kind of explaination of what He chooses to do, i just want to UNDERSTAND Him, so that i can love Him, purely and with my WHOLE heart.  i don't want a little shadow in the corner of my heart always there saying "how could You do this? if you REALLY loved me, you wouldn't make us suffer so."
i realize that i may never have this understanding in this lifetime....but i will keep searching and groping for Him to fully reveal Himself to me. one of my deepest desires is to help others love and trust in Gods mercy, to help others see that they can  lean on Him in times of trouble, i want everyone to see that He only is our source of hope and strength...but how can i do this if i myself have any shadow of doubt?
thank you for letting me vent,
lauriellen

Mat 14:29  And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus.
Mat 14:30  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me.
Mat 14:31  And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and took hold of him, and saith unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 21:22  Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.

Here is an email from Ray that may also help in further understanding how and why God operates the way he does.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868

Trust in God
Antaiwan

[Dave in Tenn]

Hi lauriellen.

When I stopped believing in Hell by the Grace of God, it was more of an event than a process.  It happened, literally, overnight.  That brought tremendous joy, renewed faith, and a return to love for God that had been absent for a long, long time.  What has followed in studying and thinking about what is to follow this vapor of an existence has not happened overnight, but is a process which continues and will continue until we're not looking at or through a glass, darkly.

If I still believed in the "Heaven" I grew up believing in--instantaneous reward and eternal bliss--a Holy retirement in paradise--where the saints all sing and marvel at them streets of gold, glory hallelujah clap on the ones and threes--then it would be much harder to understand greater evils which have been visited on those 'less fortunate' than me.  I've never been murdered, tortured, suffered horribly for even a short period of time.  My life has been a mix of reasonably good times and reasonably bad times--nothing in either case that would warrant writing a book anybody else would want to read.  It's hard to reconcile wars and Holocaust as being necessary for us to twiddle away the eons in some sort of holy forgetful fog.

But that's NOT what this whole thing is about.  And that's not how this whole thing ends.  What it IS about and how it ends, I can't tell you.  Seems whenever the scripture starts to talk about it, the writers stop themselves, because even they, under the influence of the Spirit and having received visions beyond most (or all) of us regarding it, can't begin to describe what they know except by admitting/declaring that they can't describe it.  It's been for me to contemplate the end.  And when we do properly, knowing that ALL this evil is preface to a greater end, and that the end justifies the means whereby God is working...just as He's told us...then our burden on this yoke of fellowship of His sufferings we've endured and witnessesed--and even caused--is lightened.

Regarding one of your other points, much of the suffering I have done, has been MY FAULT through choices I've made, even though I know that these choices were caused ultimately by God for my benefit.  In fact, I have suffered very little as an innocent.  One benefit is to learn HARD that I am a sinner by nature, and by practice.  If we don't learn this, then we are not part of the promise.  Jesus came to save sinners.  If we don't know we are sinners, then we might as well say He didn't come to save us.  Isn't that what He said to the Pharisees, in fact?  

If we confess our sins...He is faithful and just...

Hang in there.



  

[9440geoff]

Whenever I think about and pray about suffering so as to try to understand it better, I usually end up with the thought in my head that we measure everthing in this life in time. i.e. if we have suffered ALL our lives with something or for a number of years, or even as little as a few days. I find it hard to have even a short conversation without mentioning a period of time; but one day we are going to made incorruptible and although I can't understand now exactly what this means, I have a feeling that we won't measure things in periods of time, and all what is happening now will seem like "a drop in the ocean."

Geoff

[Jennie]

I hope so much that my statement about my abuse is not a bad thing to others. Lord knows I wouldn't mention it other than it is my testimony. God was with me ...it didn't feel like it... it was dark and scary. It continued on until I was 17 years old. God still knew. The beatings came then too. I was forced Valium down my throat.... me who was afraid to take a Tylenol for a headache! There is a bit of irony there. I don't understand why it happened but it did. I choose now to try to be a more compassionate friend and a kinder person to anyone I cross paths with. This didn't come overnight... it was years. Something happened one day that let me know for sure I am all right now. I saw one of the men that did this to me. We were eating at a Waffle House , went in sat down in a booth. I looked up and he was in the booth behind my husband facing me. I told Michael I had to speak to someone. I got up and went over there and asked him if he remembered me. He lowered his eyes and said yes. I felt nothing but sorrow for him because time had taken it's toll on him. He told me he had lost everything he had.... wife, children, grand-children. I shook his hand and wished him well. That is how I really knew that I am okay now with what happened. I have had the chance to talk to abused children and can truly say to them "I know how you feel". Much love to all, Jennie

p.s. it is cold and wet on my mountain today!

[bunnylife]

Lauriellen,

I know that is hard as humans to understand why Father God have horrible things happen. I know by His word why. In my heart and by His spirit I am beginning to understand. Today is the 20th anniversary of my brother's murder. This year hits me harder even though I know my brother is in safe keeping with God. The person that murdered my brother in 2/2011 will get a chance at parole. I thought I had my feelings under control. There is still one issue in my mind ... why does a first degree murderer even get a chance at parole? I have called today the solicitor's office because no one really told me why. It is the law of South Carolina before 1996 for life sentences. I been hearing stuff about my brother-in-law (he committed suicide in 1994) did something (what I don't know) to affect the case. Now I am wondering if they were going to give him a death sentence. I really wouldn't want that. I understand I am no better than a murderer. It is all God and His plan. Father knows the end from the beginning. He is all sovereign. I know that Love gives. I learned that from someone else on here. Love gives but sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad (evil). However, that is because of our (human) perception of it. In God's view it's all good because it will accomplish what He sets it out to do.

We need both experience of good and evil to transform us into His image of Love. I can not explain all Hows and Whys of God. I trust Him because He is Love and what He has for me and everyone else is good. It all of Love.. all the pain, suffering, sickness, sunsets, sunrises, joy, laughter... all is of Love. He will help you to trust Him, to Love Him .. Him whom is Love. He will do this things in your and mine and everyone else lives. He is the one that does it and wills it. He knows you are hurting. He knows how much I miss my brother. He knows and He cares for He is Love. This I know.  I also know that nothing will stop Father God from completing His plans for our lives. His Will shall be done and that is a wonderful.

I have been reading about the first three centuries what Christians believe. They still believe in universalism. They delighted themselves in the Lord, in the Father. It was a time of purity, simplicity of the Gospel message. Even though they were persecuted, martyred and suffered, they were cheerful and full of joy.  

James 1:2 All joy deem it, my brethren, whenever you should be falling into various trials (experience evil),
v3 knowing that the testing of your faith is producing endurance.
v4 Now let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and unimpaired, lacking in nothing." (CLV)

In His Love,
Bunni

[Marky Mark]

I hope so much that my statement about my abuse is not a bad thing to others. Lord knows I wouldn't mention it other than it is my testimony. God was with me ...it didn't feel like it... it was dark and scary. It continued on until I was 17 years old. God still knew. The beatings came then too. I was forced Valium down my throat.... me who was afraid to take a Tylenol for a headache! There is a bit of irony there. I don't understand why it happened but it did. I choose now to try to be a more compassionate friend and a kinder person to anyone I cross paths with. This didn't come overnight... it was years. Something happened one day that let me know for sure I am all right now. I saw one of the men that did this to me. We were eating at a Waffle House , went in sat down in a booth. I looked up and he was in the booth behind my husband facing me. I told Michael I had to speak to someone. I got up and went over there and asked him if he remembered me. He lowered his eyes and said yes. I felt nothing but sorrow for him because time had taken it's toll on him. He told me he had lost everything he had.... wife, children, grand-children. I shook his hand and wished him well. That is how I really knew that I am okay now with what happened. I have had the chance to talk to abused children and can truly say to them "I know how you feel". Much love to all, Jennie

p.s. it is cold and wet on my mountain today!

Jennie my sister,you are a inspiration to all of us here on how to live by what Scripture demands in Truth and Spirit.To be able to forgive your enemies in such a way is in essence what we should all strive for in this life.

It was raining on my mountain today also,until I read your post.  Thank-you.


Matthew 6:14-15 
(14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses

Matthew 5:44
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Ephesians 4:31-32
(31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: (32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.



Peace...Mark

[Roy Martin]

Jennie your post about forgiveness is just awesome. I'm with Mark on this one.
 Yes you are an inspiration.

In Christ
Roy

[Kat]

I've been thinking on this subject for the last few days...

Gal 1:4  who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
v. 5  to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Well I agree that it is a hard thing to think about all the suffering in "this present evil age," but this is what we must all pass through, this darkness/suffering, before we will be delivered into the next age.  For a few the suffering will totally end, but most will have to contend with judgment for their sins and the suffering they have caused.  No doubt there are some who have spent this life reveling in their violent nature and the suffering of others, but think of the "many stripes" they will have to endure in the next age.

Heb 10:30  For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
v. 31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

No one escapes the suffering in this life, not the young or old, not the peacemakers or violent, not the rich or the poor and it is rendered by numerous means.  It does seem that this spiritually deprived world is designed for suffering, like this is a the beginning steps of our creation.  Now it is a horrible thing to see the suffering of the innocent, but none the less it does comes upon us all, suffering is not a respecter of persons.  Maybe we should be thankful that there are any pleasures and joy that we can obtain in this life at all.

But there is another aspect to it and that is that there is a limit to it.  Think about it, absolutely nobody can suffer endlessly in this life, even though it may seem like it in some situations, but there is a limit to what anyone can endure.  God has built into us a mechanism so that suffering only goes so far and you pass out if pain is too intense and of course the body will die if abused to much.  This to me shows a very merciful God, not the god that Christianity portraits as torturing people for all eternity... endless suffering is a sick deranged idea.  But suffering seems to be a sensation that is necessary for all to experience in this age.  But why is this pain necessary?  Maybe once we are complete in God and have entered the spiritual realm and can standing back and look at it from His perspective, we will see the reasons and understand the need for.  But as of yet we all must suffer the ultimate physical sensation in this life... death   

This chart shows the causes of death in the US population in 2006 (which hit the 300 million mark).  I was not aware of these percentages and found these statistics a little surprising, it seems that the leading cause for death by a long shot is diseases.

Causes of death for the total population in 2006: United States
[FASTSTATS - Leading Causes of Death]

Diseases (all causes combined) - 1,173,351
Diseases of heart (Malignant neoplasms), Malignant neoplasms (559,888), Cerebrovascular diseases (137,119), Chronic lower respiratory diseases (124,583), Diabetes mellitus (72,449), Alzheimer’s disease (72,432), Influenza and pneumonia (56,326), Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (45,344), Septicemia (34,234), Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (27,555), Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (23,855), Parkinson’s disease (19,566),

Accidents (unintentional injuries) - 121,599

Intentional self-harm (suicide) - 33,300

Assault (homicide) - 18,573

All other causes (residual) - 447,805

mercy, peace and love
Kat