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Author Topic: thief on the cross  (Read 3493 times)

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octoberose

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thief on the cross
« on: October 23, 2009, 03:20:49 AM »

HI, I'm new to the forum. Could someone discuss with me, in light of the teachings on the web site, what Jesus meant when he told the thief on the cross that he would see him that day in Paradise? If they were both dead, I'm confused how they could see each other.
Also, when Jesus saw Moses and Abraham during the transfiguration, how did that happen?
 I am so glad to have found this site! Thank you.
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aqrinc

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Re: thief on the cross
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 04:26:33 AM »


Hi octoberose,

Welcome to the forum, check this link before getting too far:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.msg51860.html#msg51860

Once you get a grasp of what the Scriptures are really saying, that question will be easy for you.

george. :)

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: thief on the cross
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 05:11:37 AM »

Nice to meet you.  Welcome to the forum.

As for Jesus and the thief, you'd be right to assume they couldn't see each other after death.  I think the answer to that question is in the link George posted.  It's a grammatical thing.

As for the transfiguration account, here it is in the King James, and a more modern translation.  They don't disagree in answering your question.

Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4  Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6  And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7  And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8  And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2  And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
Mat 17:3  And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
Mat 17:4  And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."
Mat 17:5  He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."
Mat 17:6  When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified.
Mat 17:7  But Jesus came and touched them, saying, "Rise, and have no fear."
Mat 17:8  And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Mat 17:9  And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

It was a Vision of Moses and Elijah that Peter, James and John saw.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 05:13:55 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: thief on the cross
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 11:46:12 AM »


Hi Octoberose,

Welcome to the forum, I'm glad you have joined us  :)

Quote
Could someone discuss with me, in light of the teachings on the web site, what Jesus meant when he told the thief on the cross that he would see him that day in Paradise? If they were both dead, I'm confused how they could see each other.

Here is an email that should cover this question in some detail.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6936.0.html ----

Dear Harris:  I do not mean to put a kink in your armor, but I will give you just a little instruction on one of your major premises:

"Lu:23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief was asking Jesus to remember him when he came into or established his kingdom {The millennial reign} and notice the unexpected answer he received.

Lu:23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. He said today, not tomorrow or a thousand years from now but that today he would be with him in paradise. Now your answer would normally be ‘oh yeah’ when we die we will be with him..."
 
If this verse of Scripture is true according to your interpretation, then it contradicts most of the major teachings in the entire Bible concerning, repentance, overcoming, producing much fruit, enduring to the end, and resurrection of the dead.  One cannot pervert the entire Word of God by merely misplacing a comma (,).  Here are better renderings of Luke 23:43:

"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

Even you gave Scripture showing that the wages of sin is "DEATH."  Why do you then deny it in your paper.  "Jesus DIED for our sins according to the Scriptures."  He was not merely "crucified for our sins."  No, HE D-I-E-D. And when people DIE, Harris, they are DEAD. I can't believe that it would be necessary for me to provide a Scripture to prove such an elementary concept, but I will:

Jos 1:1 Now after the DEATH of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying, Jos 1:2 Moses My servant is DEAD..."
Well there you have from God Almighty Himself.  When a person DIES, he is DEAD.  So when you change that to some other unscriptural nonsense, you are treading in dangerous territory.  Jesus was NOT in the Christian hell of eternal torture, nor was He preaching to spirits in some pagan hell, neither was he in a place called "paradise."  Jesus was doing in the tomb exactly what He was prophesied to do and what He was commissioned to do by His Father--He died, and was therefore DEAD, until His Father Resurrected Him FROM THE DEAD.
Jesus' Father did not resurrect Jesus of Hell or from Paradise.  Jesus was DEAD in the tomb until early Sunday morning, and so was the thief DEAD.
 
Now the difference between these two deaths is that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, but the thief was NOT--he is still dead, awaiting resurrection.  If Jesus was not DEAD when He DIED for our sins, then you don't have a Saviour, Harris! And neither does anyone else!  This is mighty important stuff you are contradicting in your paper.  Do you not pay attention to the many hundreds of Scriptures that refute you paper?....

Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the DEAD, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Harris:  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that He was NOT EVEN DEAD TO BEGIN WITH?  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that
that there is no resurrection of the the DEAD THIEF," but that he is presently LIVING in a place called "paradise?"
 
I am sorry I don't have time to critique your entire paper, but I receive many requests to read hundreds and thousands of pages of papers, books, Internet sites, etc., but I just am not able. So I cannot comment on your entire paper. However,  I hope my little critique on this one point does not anger you.

God be with you,
Ray
 
PS   Another minor point:  The thief did not ASK to be with Jesus in Paradise, did he?  NO, he did not. He asked Jesus to "remember him when Jesus came in His kingdom."  Now then, Did Jesus say, "Yes, of course, I tell you that TODAY you with be with Me in My kingdom?'  Did Jesus answer Him thus?  NO.  Well what in the world then did Jesus mean that the thief would be with Him [at some future date, not "today," but "shall be with Me," which is future tense] "in paradise?" 


Quote
Also, when Jesus saw Moses and Abraham during the transfiguration, how did that happen?

There is an explanation for this in 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word.'  Here is the excerpt.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ---------------------------------------

Here is a simple example as to why no Scripture is its OWN interpretation. I am asked about once a week the following question: If dead people are really dead as you say (actually, I quote SCRIPTURE when I say that, so it is really GOD saying it, not I), then how was it that Moses and Elijah appeared alive with Christ on the mount? Let’s read it:

"And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with Him" (Matt. 17:1-3).

Now then, since most theologians refuse to follow the commandments of God, they do conclude that this verse is its OWN interpretation, and therefore what you see is what you get—Elijah and Moses are still alive in heaven, or some place. To them this Scripture is its OWN interpretation; they don’t need a SECOND witness; they don’t need to compare SPIRITUAL WITH SPIRITUAL; they don’t need to be sure this Scripture MATCHES other Scriptures. Hence, break the commandments of God and they teach heresy.

The preachers and theologians of Christendom ARE the Scribes and Pharisees, Elders, the Chief priests of today’s Church. And what was their attitude back then with regards to following the commandments of God with regard to having more than one witness, etc.?

"And as soon as it was day, the ELDERS, of the people and the CHIEF PRIESTS and the SCRIBES came together and led Him into their council… Then said they all, ‘Are You then the Son of God?’ And He said unto them, ‘You say that I am.’ And they said, WHAT NEED WE ANY FURTHER WITNESS?…" (Luke 22:66, 70-71).

Yes, indeed, "What NEED have we of any further witness?" Here’s why we need to follow the commandments of God. Just one additional Scripture witness will solve this Christian heresy that dead people are still alive. Here it is:

"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION [the vision they just had in verses 1-3 of Elijah and Moses appearing as if they were alive] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead " (Matt. 17:9).

It was all a VISION! It never "literally" happened anymore than your dreams are literal.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat



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octoberose

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Re: thief on the cross
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 11:58:06 PM »

Thank you so much! It seems so clear when you just point out the obvious! This is going to be a life changing turn, I'm sure of that.
People know what they are taught, and people who love the Lord don't set out to be led astray or into faulty theology. But, when the Spirit reveals things that were once hidden we must speak out. I'm very grateful to find some new teachers.
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