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Author Topic: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20  (Read 4080 times)

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Marlene

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Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« on: November 05, 2009, 01:49:58 PM »

Hi, I have started to read Ray's lake of fire series over. I am on part 9 now. But, while I have been reading and looking up the scriptures. My eyes fell down to Rev.  Chapter 10 verse 20.

Now, I know that Revelations is a book of symbols. It all stands for something spiritual.

Rev. 20 verse 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and the brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I have a cousin who believes in the salvation of all.  But , he still believes in many of the teachings of the old church system when it comes to Revelations.
He is getting on my nerves.
He keeps looking for a beast.  A anti-christ and a false prophet.
I know we are the beast.  This beast stands for our carnal nature that we have to overcome and our false doctrines.
I guess what I am trying to understand that since this is not literal what does the beast and false prophet represent in this verse.

For some reason I cannot get this verse off my mind.

If, you can help me I would appreciate it.

In His Love,
Marlene
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mharrell08

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 02:52:56 PM »

Hi, I have started to read Ray's lake of fire series over. I am on part 9 now. But, while I have been reading and looking up the scriptures. My eyes fell down to Rev.  Chapter 10 verse 20.

Now, I know that Revelations is a book of symbols. It all stands for something spiritual.

Rev. 20 verse 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and the brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I have a cousin who believes in the salvation of all.  But , he still believes in many of the teachings of the old church system when it comes to Revelations.
He is getting on my nerves.
He keeps looking for a beast.  A anti-christ and a false prophet.
I know we are the beast.  This beast stands for our carnal nature that we have to overcome and our false doctrines.
I guess what I am trying to understand that since this is not literal what does the beast and false prophet represent in this verse.

For some reason I cannot get this verse off my mind.

If, you can help me I would appreciate it.

In His Love,
Marlene


Hello Marlene,

You pretty much answer your own question regarding what the beast symbolizes. More can be found here (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html). The false prophet is the 2nd wild beast which came out of the earth:

Rev 13:11-15  I perceived another wild beast ascending out of the land, and it had two horns like a lambkin's, and it spoke as a dragon. And it is exercising all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight, and making the earth and those dwelling in it to be worshiping the first wild beast, whose death blow was cured.

And it is doing great signs, that it may be making fire, also, descend out of heaven into the earth in the sight of mankind. And it is deceiving those dwelling on the earth because of the signs which were given it to do in the sight of the wild beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth to make an image to the wild beast which has the blow of the sword and lives.

And it was given to it to give spirit to the image of the wild beast, that the image of the wild beast should be speaking also, and should be causing that whosoever should not be worshiping the image of the wild beast may be killed.
[CLV]

The scriptures admonish us on HOW false prophets deceive and what their end will be:

Deut 13:1-5  If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass [Rev 13:13], whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; THOU SHALT NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE WORDS OF THAT PROPHET, or that dreamer of dreams: for ['for' or because...this is why it is given for the false prophet's sign to come to pass] the LORD your God proveth ['nacah' - H5254] you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. ('JUDGE ME, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide. Examine me, O LORD, and prove ['nacah' - H5254] me; try my reins and my heart'....Ps 26:1-2)

  Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; [Rev 19:20] because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.


Hope this helps,

Marques

P.S. Remember, ALL of Revelation is symbolized in the OT:

Matt 13:44  The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. [ASV]

Mark 4:22-23  For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. [ASV]

Excerpt from 12 Truths (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm):

Does anyone believe that this is the ONLY "allegory" in the Old Testament which is written for OUR admonition. Hardly—the Old Testament is FILLED with such allegories, but who has "ears to hear and eyes to see?" And "who will believe our report?" The whole book of Revelation is explained in the Old Testament Scriptures, but the theologians of this world do not and cannot discern it. They all teach that Revelation is a book of end-time, end-of-the-world eschatology. They have not a clue.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:19:43 PM by mharrell08 »
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aqrinc

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 04:26:43 PM »

Quote
Marques

P.S. Remember, ALL of Revelation is symbolized in the OT:

Matt 13:44  The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. [ASV]

Mark 4:22-23  For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear. [ASV]

Excerpt from 12 Truths (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm):

Does anyone believe that this is the ONLY "allegory" in the Old Testament which is written for OUR admonition. Hardly—the Old Testament is FILLED with such allegories, but who has "ears to hear and eyes to see?" And "who will believe our report?" The whole book of Revelation is explained in the Old Testament Scriptures, but the theologians of this world do not and cannot discern it. They all teach that Revelation is a book of end-time, end-of-the-world eschatology. They have not a clue.


Every day and in almost every place, i can see the same blindness that i had; being practiced by wise men and those seeking after other gods. Truly i am learning the depth of depravity we can easily sink to, and how Merciful and Kind our FATHER GOD And Jesus Christ our Champion And Saviour/King really are.

Can't wait for the day all is revealed and the world will collectively drop their jaws in AWE And Amazement at He whom we have Pierced.


Rev 22: 1-4 (KJV)
1  And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3  And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Rev 22:12-17 (KJV)
12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And who-so-ever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What a Mighty God is Jesus Christ.

george. ;D :o ::)



« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 04:43:22 PM by aqr »
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AK4

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 04:59:59 PM »

The beast and false prophet can be, but not necessarily, the same person.  These have to be those false teachers, ministers and preachers in the babylon church and since we know that the beast is not just one individual so it has to be also with the prophet.  The same word (5578) for false prophet is used in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 2 Peter and  1 John only plurally.  In Revelations for some reason its singular (maybe it something to do with the "thv" or "tai" or "tou" endings, i dont know).  But  i dont see why not in Revelations this false prophet could be talking about more than one person or everyone.

Actually come to think about it, the book of Revelations is a Revelation of Jesus Christ to that person right?  And the NT is written to believers (and those who of the christian religion) as Ray has stated.  So the false prophet could be these false prophets of christendom.  Heck we can all look back and see where we were the beast, but i for one can also look back and see where when i was in babylon "preaching and teaching and parrotting (prophecying)" the false prophets of doom out there like Hal Lind sey and Jack Van Impe being a "false prophet" myself, thinking i was teaching others of Christ and His second coming.  Even though i had almost always been nondenominational.

And i know i was "tossed alive in the lake of fire" and here i am now.  Thank God. 

Just my two cents,

In Jesus

Anthony

« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 05:03:34 PM by AK4 »
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mharrell08

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 05:19:44 PM »

The beast and false prophet can be, but not necessarily, the same person.  These have to be those false teachers, ministers and preachers in the babylon church and since we know that the beast is not just one individual so it has to be also with the prophet.  The same word (5578) for false prophet is used in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 2 Peter and  1 John only plurally.  In Revelations for some reason its singular (maybe it something to do with the "thv" or "tai" or "tou" endings, i dont know).  But  i dont see why not in Revelations this false prophet could be talking about more than one person or everyone.

Actually come to think about it, the book of Revelations is a Revelation of Jesus Christ to that person right?  And the NT is written to believers (and those who of the christian religion) as Ray has stated.  So the false prophet could be these false prophets of christendom.  Heck we can all look back and see where we were the beast, but i for one can also look back and see where when i was in babylon "preaching and teaching and parrotting (prophecying)" the false prophets of doom out there like Hal Lind sey and Jack Van Impe being a "false prophet" myself, thinking i was teaching others of Christ and His second coming.  Even though i had almost always been nondenominational.

Not exactly Anthony...the book of Revelation is the Revelation of Christ IN, not 'to', those who have eyes to see and ears to hear [Rev 1:3]. And John did not perceive the beast from the sea to be the same as the beast from the earth...these are both symbolic of something else and not of one another.

Rev 13:12  he [2nd wild beast from the earth] exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Marlene

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 01:12:37 AM »

Thanks Marques. I am studying those articles. There is lots of things to learn from them. I am going to go over them and over them till God enables me to understand them. Much of them I undertstand. I know that the church system Babylon is full of false prophets. None of this should be studied fast. Thanks for your time to direct me to them. Last week God opened my eyes to understand the OT feasts and  how they all are about him. I also, marked the scriptures in the NT that speak of these feasts. Before, I had read them and my understanding was not good. But, I kept reading and reading till God opened my blind eyes.  So Reading the 12 truths will help me to relate to the OT with the NT.

I forgot that the OT has Revelations in it. I always wanted to understand Revelations, thought I did. But now the blinders are coming off.

In His Love,
Marlene



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AK4

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 11:33:58 AM »

The beast and false prophet can be, but not necessarily, the same person.  These have to be those false teachers, ministers and preachers in the babylon church and since we know that the beast is not just one individual so it has to be also with the prophet.  The same word (5578) for false prophet is used in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 2 Peter and  1 John only plurally.  In Revelations for some reason its singular (maybe it something to do with the "thv" or "tai" or "tou" endings, i dont know).  But  i dont see why not in Revelations this false prophet could be talking about more than one person or everyone.

Actually come to think about it, the book of Revelations is a Revelation of Jesus Christ to that person right?  And the NT is written to believers (and those who of the christian religion) as Ray has stated.  So the false prophet could be these false prophets of christendom.  Heck we can all look back and see where we were the beast, but i for one can also look back and see where when i was in babylon "preaching and teaching and parrotting (prophecying)" the false prophets of doom out there like Hal Lind sey and Jack Van Impe being a "false prophet" myself, thinking i was teaching others of Christ and His second coming.  Even though i had almost always been nondenominational.

Not exactly Anthony...the book of Revelation is the Revelation of Christ IN, not 'to', those who have eyes to see and ears to hear [Rev 1:3]. And John did not perceive the beast from the sea to be the same as the beast from the earth...these are both symbolic of something else and not of one another.

Rev 13:12  he [2nd wild beast from the earth] exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed


Hope this helps,

Marques

You're right Marques.  I meant "IN" not "to".
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AK4

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 01:48:07 PM »

The beast and false prophet can be, but not necessarily, the same person.  These have to be those false teachers, ministers and preachers in the babylon church and since we know that the beast is not just one individual so it has to be also with the prophet.  The same word (5578) for false prophet is used in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 2 Peter and  1 John only plurally.  In Revelations for some reason its singular (maybe it something to do with the "thv" or "tai" or "tou" endings, i dont know).  But  i dont see why not in Revelations this false prophet could be talking about more than one person or everyone.

Actually come to think about it, the book of Revelations is a Revelation of Jesus Christ to that person right?  And the NT is written to believers (and those who of the christian religion) as Ray has stated.  So the false prophet could be these false prophets of christendom.  Heck we can all look back and see where we were the beast, but i for one can also look back and see where when i was in babylon "preaching and teaching and parrotting (prophecying)" the false prophets of doom out there like Hal Lind sey and Jack Van Impe being a "false prophet" myself, thinking i was teaching others of Christ and His second coming.  Even though i had almost always been nondenominational.

Not exactly Anthony...the book of Revelation is the Revelation of Christ IN, not 'to', those who have eyes to see and ears to hear [Rev 1:3]. And John did not perceive the beast from the sea to be the same as the beast from the earth...these are both symbolic of something else and not of one another.

Rev 13:12  he [2nd wild beast from the earth] exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed


Hope this helps,

Marques

Also Marques, I believe I was right in line with what Ray has said with what i posted.  Notice what Ray has said from http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

THE BEASTS OF REVELATION

The word "beast(s)" is found 356 times in the King James Bible—59 times in Revelation alone. Most of these beasts are literal four-footed animals, albeit, all 59 of the beasts in Revelation are symbols for something other than four-footed animals. The four beasts made reference to 7 times in the singular from Rev. 4:6 to 6:7 should be translated "living creatures" and not "beasts." And all references to "beasts" in the plural (15 times) from Rev. 4:6 to Rev. 19:4 should be also translated "living creatures," with the exception of Rev. 6:8 and 18:13 where "beast" is correct.

The Greek word which should be translated "living creature(s)" these total of 22 times (7 singular plus 15 plural), comes from zoon (do you recognize the word "zoo" in there?), and it means "a living creature or living animal" and can includes ALL creatures that live on earth including man.

That leaves 59 minus 22 or 37 times that the word "beast(s)" is translated properly. Well, almost properly. The remaining 36 of the remaining 37 times that we find the word "beast(s)" in the King James it is from the Greek word, therion and it, "almost invariably denotes ‘a WILD beast.’" (Strong’s #2342, p. 116). The one occurrence of "beasts" in Rev. 18:13 is from the Greek word ktenos, and it means "beasts of burden" or domesticated animals.

All of the occurrences of the terms "living creatures" in Revelation have reference to the creatures associated with the throne room of God. These are benevolent creatures. All of the remaining beasts with the exception of the two "beasts" already mentioned in the plural, have reference to a "WILD beast," in the singular and should be translated such as numerous translations do. These are clearly not benevolent creatures, but ferocious "wild beasts." The remaining 35 references to "wild beasts" in Revelation all concern one "wild beast" and his mirror "image of the beast."

WHENCE THE BEAST WITH SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS?

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [wild] beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy [Gk: 'a blasphemous name'].

And the wild beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion, and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat [throne], and great authority.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded [as if it had been wounded] to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the wild beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the wild beast: and they worshipped the wild beast saying, Who is like unto the wild beast? Who is able to make war with him?

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power [authority] was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power [authority] was given him over all kindreds [tribes], and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear." (Rev. 13:1-9).

Who or what is this Wild Beast?

ANOTHER WILD BEAST

There’s more:

"And I beheld ANOTHER wild beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

And he exercises all the power [authority] of the first wild beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST wild beast [the one from the sea] before him [in his presence], and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first wild beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

And deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the wild beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an IMAGE to the wild beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the wild beast, that the image of the wild beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the IMAGE OF THE WILD BEAST should be killed.

And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a MARK in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the MARK, or the NAME of the wild beast, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME.

Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the wild beast: for it is THE NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX [666]" (Rev. 13:11-18).

Let me recap this just a little for you. First comes a wild beast out of the sea with seven heads and ten horns. A second wild beast comes out of the earth like a lamb with two horns speaking like a dragon and he calls down fire from heaven and deceives the whole world by miracles. This second wild beasts makes everyone worship the first wild beast. This wild beast from the earth then causes everyone on earth to make an image of the first wild beast from the sea and makes everyone worship this image of the wild beast from the sea or be killed.

This image of the wild beast from the sea then causes everyone to worship this image, and causes all to receive a MARK of the first wild beast from the sea in their right hand, or in their foreheads. They can have either a mark or the name or the number of his name, and that number is said (albeit not correctly said) to be the number of a man, and it is the number 666.

Now repeat all that back to me in your own words! Okay, let’s try this shortened version: a beast from the earth causes all to worship a beast from the sea and to also make an image of this beast from the sea, who then causes all to receive either a mark, name, or number. Got it?

*the image, name, and number of the wild beast" all have reference to the one beast that comes up out of the sea and is the wild beast made reference to for the remainder of the book of Revelation. It is this very "wild beast" along with the "false prophet" which is ultimately "…cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:21).
Who is this WILD BEAST?

It behooves us to know just who or what this wild beast is, and especially his image. It is a force and a power to be reckoned with by every human that has ever lived or ever will live.

On the one hand we have this:

"Who is like the unto the wild beast? Who is able to make war with him?… And it was given unto him to MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS… And all that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb…" (Rev. 13:4, 7, & 8).

On the other hand we have this:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, if any man worship the wild beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, WHICH IS POURED OUT WITHOUT MIXTURE…" (Rev. 14:9-10).

Talk about finding oneself between a rock and hard place!

Apparently we can either be AT WAR with this wild beast, though we were just warned: "…who is ABLE to make war with him"? Or, we can partake of "THE WRATH OF GOD poured out without mixture…" Either prospect is extremely frightening. But I would rather be on God’s side than on the side of the wild beast. However, how well will we fare in war against this wild beast, seeing that God warns us, "Who is ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH HIM?"

Before I was yet a teenager, my older brother read to us one time from this section of Revelation. Even at that early age, I quickly realized that this book of Revelation was an hard book. For I immediately saw that if we didn’t follow the beast it would kills us and if we did follow the beast, God would kill us. My brother did not have an explanation for this, and it bothered me somewhat for many years to come. It was, in fact, the only thing that I never forgot in this mysterious book of Revelation. I wondered just how fair can God be if we are left with two fatal choices such as that. Maybe I’ve even frightened you by now. That is not my objective. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you FREE."

Like everything in Revelation leading up to the consummation of all things, this wild beast is the wild beast that "is, was, and will be." This wild beast has been around from before John received his revelation, and will be around until the consummation. However, that is not to say that these things that "are, were, and will be" do not build into a giant and violent CRESCENDO in these end times:

Evil men have always been with us. And so "evil men are, were, and will be." But notice what Paul tells us will happen as the consummation of the age is upon us:

"But evil men and seducers [imposters] shall wax [grow] worse and WORSE, deceiving and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).

And so too, this wild beast that comes up out of the sea is the beast IS (at the time John wrote of it), WAS (before it was introduced to John), AND WILL BE (down through the centuries until our time and beyond until the consummation of this age).

You will never understand the book of Revelation as long as you try to make it either "Preterism"of the past or "Futurism" of still-to-be-fulfilled events for the first time. The events of Revelation are neither, Preterism or Futurism, but rather things that "are, were, and will be."


This is my shortened down version of what Ray had said so i could understand better.  



First comes a wild beast out of the sea…

A second wild beast comes out of the earth …

making everyone worship the first wild beast and its image. (the mirror image Ray spoke of, man worshipping themselves because of the freewill philosophy)

This image of the first wild beast then causes everyone to worship this image, and causes all to receive a MARK of the first wild beast from the sea in their right hand, or in their foreheads. They can have either a mark or the name or the number of his name, and that number is said (albeit not correctly said) to be the number of a man, and it is the number 666.



In Jesus

Anthony
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 02:05:36 PM by AK4 »
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mharrell08

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 03:01:00 PM »

On my way to conference Anthony...but no, the scriptures nor Ray's teaching state the beast from the sea and the beast from the earth are the same. I was only making reference to your 1st statement, not your entire post (notice the highlight). The rest of your post is right on, just not the 1st statement.

No worries, talk to you later.

Marques
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AK4

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 01:56:55 PM »

This isnt to keep the debate going or nothing, but i think you guys are missing some of it (or maybe its just me).  Here in the next installment Ray clearly states what i have been saying.

Its not a literal second (or another) beast.  Its showing ones progression coming out of the sea of humanity (the lowest realm) to the earth realm and hopefully following would be to the heavenly realm.  Notice what Ray teaches on this in red below:

TURNING OUR IDOLS OF THE HEART INTO POWDER

In Ezekiel 14:7 we read:

"For every one of the house of Israel [WE {Gentiles} are now the circumcision of God, Phil. 3:3. WE {Gentile believers} are the true Jew, Romans 2:28-29. WE {Gentiles & a remnant of racial Israel} are the spiritual Israel of God, Gal. 6:16] or of the stranger that sojourns in Israel, which separates himself from Me, and sets up HIS IDOLS IN HIS HEART…"
How many understand our Lord’s statements in Luke 20:17-18?

"And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."

When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,

"And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH…" (Rev. 13:3).

Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God’s Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

But here’s the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!


We all have "idols of the heart." Whenever we disobey God, we are giving allegiance to and manifesting idols in our heart.

When ancient Israel turned from God, they too manifested the idols in their hearts by building a literal golden calf idol with which to worship. And what did God do through Moses?

"And he [Moses] took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire [don’t forget I Cor. 3:15], and GROUND IT TO POWDER, and scattered it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it" (Exodus 32:20).


Remember we are but "clay" in the hands of the Master Potter, and clay consists of particles of sedimentary silicates of aluminum less than two-thousandth of a millimeter in diameter—in other words, very fine powder. In Ancient Israel, the sin offering, the peace offering, the meat offering, and thank offering all had to be made with fine flour. All of the universe is composed of very fine things.

All of the instructions on what was to be offered to God in the service of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, who was to offer it, and how it was to be offered is not just quaint little stories of history:

"Now ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENED unto them for ensamples: and they are written FOR OUR ADMONITION, upon whom the ends of the world [ages] are come." (I Cor. 10:11).

Christ is representative of all and every one of these sacrifices. And

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He [Jesus Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17).

So, when we read of the fine flour, oil, salt, and frankincense in the Old Testament offerings, we must understand that WE TOO are to be like fine flour—spiritually humbled and ground fine like powder, oil—having the Spirit of God in us, salt—we are to BE the "salt of the earth," and frankincense—our very lives becoming a sweet smelling incense to our God.

Some of the things we must go through seem bad on the surface. But as in all of God’s dealings, what appears at first to be something horribly bad, is in reality, only a necessary stage in the process of overcoming sin and self so as to be qualified to reign with Christ in bringing the rest of humanity into a knowledge of the Truth, redemption, salvation, and finally, glory.


Now i realise this may be talking of two categories, one represent the called where they fall on Christ and are just broken and become "like a false prophet" and the other represent the chosen where Ray goes on to explain where Christ falls on us and grinds us to powder and then we are able to rebuild our spiritual house on the Rock and move into the heavenly realm.

In Revelations its a parable like the parables in the Gospels.  And the parables are about the called and the chosen, the few and the many.  In the Gospel parables, its talking of the two categories but even as Ray said we cant be both but we can go from one to the other.  I believe this is the same thing in beast parables of Revelations. Notice even how Ray put it:

Quote
Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God’s Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

And going back into the world, "thinking" we know Christ, we then start "prophecying", talking about Him, albeit falsely--like a false prophet to others about a Jesus we think we know.

I dont see any difference of this parable in Revelations to the ones in the Gospels, especially the Sower and the Prodigal son parables.

What say you guys?

Anthony

I
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mharrell08

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 02:53:49 PM »

This isnt to keep the debate going or nothing, but i think you guys are missing some of it (or maybe its just me).  Here in the next installment Ray clearly states what i have been saying.

Its not a literal second (or another) beast.  Its showing ones progression coming out of the sea of humanity (the lowest realm) to the earth realm and hopefully following would be to the heavenly realm.  Notice what Ray teaches on this in red below:

Hello Anthony,

I know what you mean Anthony as I've highlighted it again, but it still does not make it true. John clearly says 'ANOTHER BEAST' [Rev 13:11], not the same one from the sea coming onto the earth. One beast rises from the sea [Rev 13:1], the other comes out of the earth [Rev 13:11].

Only the first beast is said to have a wound on one of it's head [Rev 13:3]. Only the first beast has 7 heads and 10 horns and upon his horns 10 crowns. [Rev 13:1]. Only the first beast was it given to make war with the saints and overcome them, power over all kindreds, tongues, and nations [Rev 13:7]. Only the first beast is who all who dwell on the earth will worship [Rev 13:8].

Now then, the 2nd beast has 2 horns like a lamb [Rev 13:11]. Only the 2nd beast CAUSES those on the earth to worship the 1st beast with the wound [Rev 13:12]. Only the 2nd beast makes fire come down from heaven in the sight of men to deceive those on the earth to worship the 1st beast which had the wound by the sword [Rev 13:13-14]. Only the 2nd beast CAUSES all to receive the mark of the 1st beast [Rev 13:16-17].

Now i realise this may be talking of two categories, one represent the called where they fall on Christ and are just broken and become "like a false prophet" and the other represent the chosen where Ray goes on to explain where Christ falls on us and grinds us to powder and then we are able to rebuild our spiritual house on the Rock and move into the heavenly realm.

In Revelations its a parable like the parables in the Gospels.  And the parables are about the called and the chosen, the few and the many.  In the Gospel parables, its talking of the two categories but even as Ray said we cant be both but we can go from one to the other.  I believe this is the same thing in beast parables of Revelations. Notice even how Ray put it:

And going back into the world, "thinking" we know Christ, we then start "prophecying", talking about Him, albeit falsely--like a false prophet to others about a Jesus we think we know.

And this highlighted comment above is opposite of what we posted from Revelation. The false prophet causes those to worship THE BEAST...no where in scripture is Jesus likened to a beast.

You state that Ray's teaching agree with this...but Ray clearly teaches (from the scriptures) that the beast is US. Isn't that what Revelation says above in my first comments?

Go to the OT...look at the Kings of Babylon, Assyria, etc...and then LOOK AT THEIR MANY FALSE PROPHETS...do they not ALL speak of worshiping their great kings? That's the shadow, that's the parable.


Thanks,

Marques
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AK4

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 05:23:13 PM »

Quote
Anthony
And going back into the world, "thinking" we know Christ, we then start "prophecying", talking about Him, albeit falsely--like a false prophet to others about a Jesus we think we know.

Quote
Marques
And this highlighted comment above is opposite of what we posted from Revelation. The false prophet causes those to worship THE BEAST...no where in scripture is Jesus likened to a beast.

Just wanted to clear this up i wasnt saying they were calling Jesus a false prophet but they where prophecying about Jesus falsely.

Anyway here's an email where Ray say something directly about the "false prophet"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7426.0.html

Dear Robby: As I have over 323 unanswered emails ahead of yours, I will make my COMMENTS... in you email short:
 
I have some questions here.

    Do you believe that Satan (the Devil) and his angels are also going to be reconciled?
     
    COMMENT:  Yes, course. They will be "judged" just like everyone else, and in Judgment all will learn "righteousness" (Isa. 26:9, etc., etc., etc.)
     
    What about the Anti-Christ,
     
    COMMENT:  Scripturally there is no such thing as "THE antichrist."
     
     False Prophet,
     
    COMMENT:  The "false prophet," is not one person, but a system, and yes, they will be severely JUDGED and made right. (Phil. 2:9-11, Eph. 1:10, etc., etc., etc.)     
     and all of those who take the Mark of the Beast and/or bow before him during the Great Tribulation? Do you believe that they will be reconciled?
     
    COMMENT:  Those who take the mark of the beast are virtually the entire population of humanity, so yes, of course, God will judge them and purify their evil and wicked ways.
     
    Then what about John 3:18? It says that he who does not believe is already condemned.
     
    COMMENT:  Yes, one is either a believer or a non-believer. The non-believers will be "condemned" which means "judged."  In Judgment (Acts 17:31), all will have hope in Christ.
     
    Additionally, In your pages, you state that Sheol and Hades just mean "the grave",
     
    COMMENT:  I have NEVER said such a thing. You need to go back and re-read the 60 or 70 pages I have written on the subject of "sheol," and my most recent Installment: "Hades and the Second Death."
     
    and that people who die go to the grave and aren't conscious until the resurrection.
     
    COMMENT:  In the grave there is no consciousness, this is true. I learned this from the Scriptures. Did you think that I made this doctrine up by myself?
     
     However, I can't see this as being the case. Although grave is one of the meanings of Sheol and Hades, the primary meaning is "unseen state" or "unseen world". Sheol also means "place of departed spirits". So, Hades/Sheol would have the meaning of "unseen world of spirits" or spirit world. That is, an invisible world that exists parallel to the one that we currently live in. This is known as the spiritual realm.
     
    COMMENT:  That is unscriptural heresy (II Pet. 2:1). These are definitions from Dr. Strong and the like, who do not understand how these words are really used in Scripture. Yes, hades/sheol is the "unseen" or "imperceptible" realm of the dead, but it is NOT A WORLD OF SPIRITS. That is unscriptural nonsense, and there is not one Scripture to support such an absurd lie.
     
    I believe in hell as a world of conscious torment. However, I DO NOT believe in the dark age pagan depiction of it.
     
    COMMENT:  THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME!  The Christian hell came from the Roman hell which came from the Greek hades which came from the Egyptian Amenti. The Christian hell IS THE PAGAN EGYPTIAN UNDERWORLD OF TARTARUS.  Where do you come up with this stuff?
     
     In NDE's, hell is not the same for everybody who goes there.
    Unfortunately, too many churches still teach this version of it, and they still teach that fire and brimstone is the exclusive type of hell. I believe that fire and sulfur is only one type of hell (as shown in NDE's), but it isn't the only type. Just one of the many types.
    There are conmen and con-artists out there such as Mary K. Baxter and Bill Wiese who still promote the pagan image of hell. Their books (Divine Revelation of Hell & 23 Minutes in Hell) are fakes and fabricated fables. They highly resemble Dante's Inferno and Egyptian paganism.
     
    COMMENT:  Well get ready for a revelation, because not only does the Christian hell "highly resemble" Dante and Egypt paganism, IT IS DANTE'S AND EGYPT'S PAGANISM!
     
    I personally believe that hell (place of torment) is located in another dimension - that is, within a parallel universe or alternative reality that exists alongside the one that we currently live in. I believe that what is known as the gates of hell (Hades) are the wormholes that have been more recently discovered in Physics. The wormholes explain the tunnel that people travel thru in NDE's. The real Hades isn't anything like Greek Mythology.
     
    COMMENT:  You got that right--there is NO PERCEPTION in the real hades (unseen) realm of the dead.  Do you still believe that the moon is made out of blue cheese also?
     
    Personally, I feel that the proper name given to what we refer to as hell (as the place of torment) is Tartarus. Tartarus is referred to as the lowest Hades or Sheol. Tartarus is sometimes referred to as the demonic realm because that's where the fallen angels (demons) currently reside at (2 Peter 2:4). The Rich Man & Lazarus story shows that Hades is divided in sections (e.g. torment, bliss).
    Like Hades, the real Tartarus isn't anything like Greek Mythology.
     
    COMMENT:  Tartarus IS Greek and Egyptian Mythology. That's where it came from, so how is it NOT LIKE where it CAME FROM?  Am I going too fast for you?
     
    Gehenna was simply used as a symbol for the fate of the wicked. The fires are out today.
    Gehenna isn't the name of the afterlife world of torment. Gehenna is just Greek for the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem.
     
    COMMENT:  I believe that is what I myself have said in my papers, is it not?
     
    There's a chance that the Dead Sea is going to be the geographical location for the lake of the fire. Currently, there are no fires burning there, of course, but in the future, it's going to be lit up to serve its function.
     
    COMMENT:  NO, there is "no chance in HELL" that the Dead Sea is going to be the geographical location for the lake of fire!
     
    God be with you, and grant to you a little spirit of wisdom,
    Ray

In Jesus

Anthony
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mharrell08

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 05:35:02 PM »

Just wanted to clear this up i wasnt saying they were calling Jesus a false prophet but they where prophecying about Jesus falsely.

Anyway here's an email where Ray say something directly about the "false prophet"


Thank you for the clarification Anthony...and also notice that Ray does not teach the 'false prophet' is the same as the beast of the sea nor a 'progression' of it.


Hope all of this helped you,

Marques
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aqrinc

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Re: Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2009, 04:31:26 AM »


Mark,

That is a very timely piece of Ray's work to re-introduce to us all. I will just mention, reading this and then rereading The books of Matthew, Mark Luke & John; really opens up eyes and ears to what Jesus was Saying and Doing during His Physical Ministry on Earth.

Looks like from hindsight, GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ told The Truth, The Whole Truth And Nothing But The Truth.

2Ti 3:12-17 (RV)
12  Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13  But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

14  But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15  and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16  Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
17  that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

george. :) :o ::)



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