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Author Topic: Vegan  (Read 13060 times)

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shaine

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Vegan
« on: November 13, 2009, 12:43:59 AM »

Greetings,

What do you guys think about veganism?

My wife brought this issue to my attention and advocated for us to become vegans. Now, I love meat and have never thought twice about eating it, but the things that she told me about how these animals were treated was disturbing to say the least.

As Christians,should we participate in a practice that ,for the most part, completely disregards the ethical treatment of animals?

If you are curious to see what I am talking about, PETA has plenty of information and videos.

Comments are welcome!

-Shaine


P.S.- I personally would still like to continue to eat meat, just not from animals that are raised inhumanely.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 02:57:53 AM »

My main problem with veganism is that it is an -ism.  It's an ideology.  I run from ideologues almost as fast as from religionists.  PETA, for the most part, is chock full of Ideologues.  They are not so much interested in presenting the rounded truth as in convincing you to follow their way.  Whatever works to that end, they will use. 

Scripture contains a lot of commandments, permissions, and prohibitions concerning diet.  As a believer living under the New Covenant, I know that the Apostles (and Paul in particular) had a lot to say about how diet, food, and drink related to living the deep things of God.  They use food and drink as 'symbols' and examples of living by grace and faith and love as much or more than they tell us by way of regulation what we should eat.   Study those, and decide for yourself in the meantime what diet works for your concience, health, and economy.  I'll give you the short answer...you can eat whatever you want.  A sovereign God retains the right to convince you to 'want' to eat right, and for all the right reasons.

What you are NOT allowed to do is to place your diet over the sovereignty of God by turning it into a religion or religious excercise; to become self-righteous or begin to believe that you are made Holy by what you do or do not eat; or insist that your concience, health and economy should determine MY actions.   :) 

You want scripture, I got it.   :)

I hope that helps a little.  I doubt it helps a whole lot.   :D 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Ninny

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 09:35:09 AM »

Dave! What a good answer! I read this last night and after having been a vegetarian for about 15 years,for mostly all the wrong reasons I didn't know how to answer this in a good way! I discovered the world of vegetarianism..around 1973 while studying with the Seventh Day Adventist church. and easily adopted the lifestyle because I thought it was what God wanted or even commanded! I didn't join the church until around 1976 and it was kind of funny that when I joined the church the pastor said, "You were already an Adventist before you joined the church!" That's mainly because they didn't have to "clean me up" before I could join! :o

Some churches are so identified by their lifestyle that you must conform to this to be a part of the group! I guess this is the purpose for all groups of people..but you just have to examine your motives and be honest with God as to why you do what you do!

In the Adventist church you have those who are strict vegans and those like me who were laco-ovo vegetarians using eggs and milk..talk about splitting hairs!! you could feel the scorn of the vegans when they knew you used eggs and milk!! yeouch!! I even knew people who wouldn't even EAT from a pan that had ever had meat cooked in it.. :-\ It had little to do with the treatment of animals..some, but little..mainly it was an adherence to the dietary laws in the OT..

So we all just have to examine our motives and don't expect that just because you choose it.. everyone else will see your point of view...do everything you do to glorify the Father and never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing! Do everything as unto God and not unto men! Be healthy!!  ;)  :D
Kathy ;)
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cherokee

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 09:48:58 AM »

Good posts Dave and Kathy,  ;)

Shaine,
I don't know about where you live, but here in Ky and in Ohio there are small meat processing plants where the animals are treated humanly. There are even some where you can go pick out the animal you want and see how they are treated. Hope this helps.

Blessings,
Suzie
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shaine

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 10:49:06 AM »

yeah, my wife and I are looking into where we can buy humanely raised meat.

It's not so much the health benefits that concerns me, it's the actual treatment of the animal itself while it is alive.

Balaam and his donkey comes to mind when I think about this, strangely.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Vegan
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 10:58:55 AM »


Hi Shaine,

I appreciate how you feel about the treatment of those animals in slaughterhouses.  I would say let Peta do the work of calling attention to the appalling conditions in some of those places.  I believe it is of no avail for us to try to change this world, but we can and should make a difference in our own family.  I think it is good for you to seek out buying humanely raised animals.

Our body as the temple of the living God, IMO, is a much better reason to change the way we eat in order to gain a healthier lifestyle.  I believe we should be willing to change our eating habits as we have truth revealed to us concerning how to properly take care of our bodies.  The speech by Dr. Steger at the conference was a real eye opener, he put out to us many reasons for which the average person's diet is deplorable and if you follow his advice you would eat very little meat, period.  As I am studying what Dr. Steger's recommends I realize it is going to be a great amount of changes necessary for me.  I agree with Dave, the way we eat should not become a religion of itself, but I guess it is all part of fighting the good fight  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 12:05:41 AM by Kat »
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steve

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 12:42:15 PM »

Hi Shaine,

I think Dave hit the nail on the head when he said that you can eat what you want, but you don't want to make a religious exercise out of it. I was a vegan for about 6 years. I have cooked and eaten so much tofu I can hardly stand it. I eat a little bit of meat these days. I like eating ribs.
I think one of my reasons for choosing to be a vegan was the ethical treatment of animals. The scripture says that A righteous man considers the life of the beast, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. I thought about the conditions we subject animals to before we eat them. I just didn't want to participate in that. Today I eat my neighbors chicken eggs. I see them running around the yard when I walk by, and I think they have a pretty good life. I see deer in my yard practically every day. I don't hunt them, but I gratefully eat what people offer me. There are farms here in VA that try to raise farm animals humanely too. It is good to consider what you are doing to an animal before you eat it. It's also good to think about what you are eating.
And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Then I think it will all work out.


Steve
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shaine

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2009, 11:04:34 PM »

Thank you everybody for your thoughts.

I am still not sure what I have decided about this yet, but I will meditate on this and seek God about it.

If you wouldn't mind, please pray for my wife and I as we seek God's will in this situation. I want to be pleasing to my Lord more than anything else!

-Shaine
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musicman

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 12:35:54 AM »

People

Eating

Tasty

Animals
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Ninny

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 12:52:13 AM »

Musicman...oh, never mind.... :D
Kathy ;)
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Linny

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2009, 03:18:53 AM »

We've went from junk foodies to vegan, then just vegetarian, back to some balance, back to eating poorly, now back to balance again! We had to learn to stop making it a religion in and of itself. When you learn about nutrition and how healing it is, it is easy to go overboard as Dave said. There is a Scripture about how everything is permissable but not everything is beneficial.

We choose to eat better because we want to live a long and healthy and productive life for the Lord. Not because we are under any food laws.

The ethical treatment of animals is one important aspect but the poisons in the meat treated unethically should not be put in our bodies IF we want to remain healthy. Same with homogenized dairy. Dead calcium does the opposite of organic calcium in our bodies. And don't get me started on the growth hormones and steroids.  ::) :-X

A vegan diet (not including soy products) along with juicing allows the body to heal and I would recommend it for anyone who is ill or has health issues, for a season. Some people will thrive on this diet for life but others have not after a time.

I studied nutrition for over 10 years and found healing for thyroid disease and infertility through nutrition so I am a fan. We have amazingly healthy children, do not use doctors or prescription drugs. Yes, we've been "wackos " for a while now!  ;D

I'm rambling now so I'll quit. But  I would recommend you spend a lot of time studying non- traditional , Biblical sources.

Lin
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Ninny

  • Guest
Re: Vegan
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2009, 09:42:29 AM »

Lin, to add to what you said and i meant to put this in earlier if I didn't but hey guys...
MEN should NEVER use any soy product unless it is fermented (soy sauce is fermented) Soy is a phyto estrogen..it mimics estrogen in the body...you men do NOT need more estrogen in your bodies..all the hormones put into meat is completely frightening! Women don't need the estrogen either..Men..don't eat soy!!
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CottonPicker

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2009, 01:29:13 PM »

I guess you could label my diet a vegan diet because I don’t eat any animal products (dairy, cheese, eggs, fish, fowl, beef).  I eat plant based foods, mostly in their whole form with minimal processing.  I changed my diet about 10 years ago after I started looking for a solution to a health problem that eventually might have required major surgery.  As a result, my problem was eventually cured along with a number of other issues that had been causing me trouble.  Until then, I never realized how powerful diet could be.  I am in my mid-fifties and feel better today than I did in my mid-twenties.  It’s truly wonderful to be pain free.

I know of  PETA, but I’ve never checked out their organization.  Factory farming practices sicken me and I am truly grateful to God that I have all sorts of veggies, fruits and legumes available to me, that I don’t have to eat animals and that I can be well.

I am not “religious” about my diet.  In the beginning I was excited to share my good results with people but I found people didn’t really want to hear.  Hmmm.  Sound familiar?  Now I just keep my mouth shut and plod along my own way.  I feel like I’m out of step with the rest of the world in so many ways and no longer let it bother me.
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shaine

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2009, 02:32:47 PM »

Hey Guys,

This is Casey; Shaine's wife.  This is the first time I've written on the forum so let me first say, Hello Bretheren!

Thank you so much for your consideration of our question!  I am blown away by how many of you took time to discuss this with us. 

I completely agree that this diet must not turn into a religion.  As one must be so intentional about it: weighing what they buy and eat at every market visit and every snack and meal, it would be easy to get fanatical about it.  The Lord is our center, and no diet should be allowed to take that place.

I have been obsessing about this issue for several days and last night I could feel warning alarms going off in my heart.  If one is going to obsess, then obsess about God, right?

Anyway, I am going to follow all your wonderful advice and do this for the Lord.  If I am to be a vegan, then I will be one for the Lord.  And also not to let my right hand know what my left is doing.  Great advice.

Thanks again!
and God bless!
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2009, 03:38:14 PM »

Hey Casey.  That sounds like a plan.   :D

One day the Lord may set a plate of meat down in front of you so you can see whether you choose love and thankfulness or beliefs and 'religion'.  Love trumps even faith.  Me?  I'll have a little, thank you very much...and God bless you.   :D       
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

judith collier

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2009, 07:42:13 PM »

For me all this is happening naturally the older I get. I just don't like meat the way I used to. Last night while I was on here I got hungry and ended up eating 2 carrots, a banana, and a hard piece of a herbal bread dipped in olive oil.  When I was younger I would never have been satisafied with this.
It amazes me. judy
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indianabob

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 02:21:14 AM »

Right on Alex,
This is one I can agree with.  Tasty is right, but for me I want to be sure that it is natural and we have a difficult time finding "natural" meats in the local market.  So, I restrict my self to small amounts of meat and lots of vegetables or fruit, perhaps 80 % of my diet.

For me this began when I found that I had bowel cancer in 1987 and had 8 inches of my Colon removed.  God was good to me even so and I didn't take Chemo therapy or radiation and lived anyway.  So, I guess that I'm on borrowed time.  I don't believe that I make a fetish of it but I do admit my limitations when we are out with friends and they see that my wife orders a steak for herself and then passes a small portion, a bite or two over to me. 
Hamburger and others ground meat products seem to have the greatest risk because of the processing and being stored at room temperature.  Meat begins to spoil as soon as it is shredded and hamburger should be used as soon as it is ground or thawed if we buy frozen.

Of course many folks use hamburger carelessly and never get sick.  Maybe it's just a well functioning immune system in most people.

Anyway I liked your explanation of the acronym P E T A


People

Eating

Tasty

Animals
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G. Driggs

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 07:06:43 AM »


Of course many folks use hamburger carelessly and never get sick.  Maybe it's just a well functioning immune system in most people.


Good point indianabob. Or it could be that the words of our Lord are true, or maybe Im just misunderstanding Him.

Pro 18:20  A man can fill his stomach with what he says. The words from his lips can satisfy him.
Pro 18:21  Your tongue has the power of life and death. Those who love to talk will eat the fruit of their words.

Mat 15:17  "Don't you see? Everything that enters the mouth goes into the stomach. Then it goes out of the body.
Mat 15:18  But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart. Those are the things that make you 'unclean.'
Mat 15:19  Evil thoughts come out of the heart. So do murder, adultery, and other sexual sins. And so do stealing, false witness, and telling lies about others.
Mat 15:20  Those are the things that make you 'unclean.' But eating without washing your hands does not make you "unclean.'"

Mar 7:14  Again Jesus called the crowd to him. He said, "Listen to me, everyone. Understand this.
Mar 7:15  Nothing outside of you can make you 'unclean' by going into you. It is what comes out of you that makes you "unclean.'"
Mar 7:16  [If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.]  
Mar 7:17  Then he left the crowd and entered the house. His disciples asked him about this teaching.
Mar 7:18  "Don't you understand?" Jesus asked. "Don't you see? Nothing that enters people from the outside can make them 'unclean.'
Mar 7:19  It doesn't go into the heart. It goes into the stomach. Then it goes out of the body." In saying this, Jesus was calling all foods "clean."
Mar 7:20  He went on to say, "What comes out of people makes them 'unclean.'
Mar 7:21  Evil thoughts come from the inside, from people's hearts. So do sexual sins, stealing and murder. Adultery,
Mar 7:22  greed, hate and cheating come from people's hearts too. So do desires that are not pure, and wanting what belongs to others. And so do telling lies about others and being proud and being foolish.
Mar 7:23  All those evil things come from inside a person. They make him "unclean.'"  

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of injustice. The tongue is constituted among our members that which is spotting the whole body, and setting the wheel of our lineage aflame, and is set aflame by Gehenna."
Jas 3:7 For every nature, both of wild beasts and flying creatures, both of reptiles and those of the salt sea, is tamed and has been tamed by human nature."
Jas 3:8 Yet the tongue can no man tame - a turbulent evil, distended with death-carrying venom."

So is it really food that makes us unclean? Or is it what we say and do? Or am I totally misunderstanding all this? I feel like Im missing something, just not sure what. Obviously these are spiritual words, so what is the spiritual application?

I used to be quite afraid of germs and all sorts of stuff getting into my system before reading these verses. Now its like if I drop my favorite food on the floor (I hate to waste) I have no problem picking it back up and eating it. I use to go crazy if I saw my kids doing the same, but it never seemed to hurt them or me. I was once even forced to drink sewage water from hospital, but never had any ill effects afterward.

I have heard dear brother Ray say something like he is repenting by changing his diet, so he must know something I dont about what goes into our bodies. I just never had the nerve to ask. I have also heard him say that he totally depends on the Lord for healing. Maybe this is just an act of faith, for faith without works is dead.

I think I have been having a guilty conscience about what my family an I eat ever since reading this. We eat alot of meat, either store bought or from what ever I catch. We dont have many options where I live, and fresh fruit and vegetables are hard to come by, so its mostly canned or dry goods for us. Whats interesting is being a little overweight here in the arctic might actually be a good thing, with that little extra fat you stay warmer. ;)

So do you all really think if I change my diet, quit eating poorly treated animals, I will live longer, have a better life, and be a better person? I really want to know, I value your counsel. Also please give me your thoughts about the verses above, I may be misinterpreting it, which wouldnt be the first time I did that. I really dont want a debate or arguments, I ask because I honestly dont know. Maybe I need to think about changing the way my family and I eat, because like I said I have had a guilty conscience about this for a few days now, and I just had to ask and let it out.

Just to let you know, I have nothing against people who want to change the way they eat, I think it is a good thing if it makes you feel better physically. I suppose a good, healthy combination of spiritual food and physical food may actually go hand in hand.

This is a great topic, thank you all for your input. :)

Peace, Grace and Love to you all

G.Driggs




« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 07:53:09 AM by G. Driggs »
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Ninny

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2009, 09:27:27 AM »

George, man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart..your heart is where all things begin..A pure heart and a clean conscience. Nothing we wear or eat or do can make us better or worse..it's what's in the heart! Eating better makes you feel better but it won't make you a better person..God alone does that! Love God and let Him change you... :-* don't feel guilty about what you do with a clean conscience! :D

Kathy ;) :-*
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mharrell08

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Re: Vegan
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 09:52:57 AM »

Let the scriptures be our final authority on the matter...no need to be tossed to and fro.

Roman Chapter 14

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations ["Don't criticize them for having beliefs that are different from yours"...CEV]. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.



Marques
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