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[acomplishedartis]

I would like to share a part of a writing I made a couple moths ago:


So how do the humans will works? First, people do not have free-will (a will that is free of any kind of influence, a will with No cause) I also used to think that we do, but I was wrong, very wrong. Humans are very easily persuaded by any feeling, sentiment and emotion; by desires that become thoughts, thoughts that become our will on regard to any matter. And all this happens very fast. It is just like when we can be able to follow rhythms, we know there are always patterns of certain times that we do follow automatically; when we play an instrument with harmony we can feel the rhythm, our senses get coordinated, and our thoughts and memories are being translated into movements.
The human will works just as the well known scientific principle of the law of cause and effect; nothing comes from nothing and everything does have a motive, a reason and a meaning!

Long before, the Time and the seasons where being measured by Priest-Astronomers whom used to take on account the position of the sun, the moon and stars, this knowledge was often used to control individuals; telling them what to do so that they would evoke or cause or bring certain season. Now days many individuals believe in luck, chaos and free will witch is often begging used against them to control them.
Not because we are not always aware of the cause of everything, it means that everything does not have a cause. Or could there be other options? Does people really can will things with out first desire them? Could they take willingly actions with out think about them first? Is there any other option left that doesn’t sound dumber than these? Anyone that knows very well all these fields understand very well how our wills are very limited. It seems greatly incredible to me how the majority of the people cheat themselves about these over and over again tons of times every day. Well… maybe not so incredible, since it is understandable that certain circumstances can make people feel that some individual’s behaviors have no excuse, and so they get these feelings, emotions and desires that make them think that we do have free will, however, the pattern stills there. The thing is that when we can’t understand something it is way more easily to ignore it.
Here is a clearer quotation about the main idea:


The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.

Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.

· The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,
· Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,
· Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.

[L. Ray Smith, The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A (bible-truths.com)]

There are not many the people who do not believe on the lack of this supposedly human power to be able to choose things with out a reason, motive, or cause. And yes, it is overwhelming just to grasp whatever we can of the real meaning of this truth, overwhelming as well as humbling. There is not neutral position; there is not such thing as half free will or anything like that. But you still can un-freely keep advertising your self about how you can supposedly control your own destiny.

[aqrinc]

Hi moises,

I borrowed: Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

for a twitter message, cannot attribute because it only gives me 140 characters. I did post a second tweet attributing it to BT.

george.

[E. Woods]

I would like to share a part of a writing I made a couple moths ago:


So how do the humans will works? First, people do not have free-will (a will that is free of any kind of influence, a will with No cause) I also used to think that we do, but I was wrong, very wrong. Humans are very easily persuaded by any feeling, sentiment and emotion; by desires that become thoughts, thoughts that become our will on regard to any matter. And all this happens very fast. It is just like when we can be able to follow rhythms, we know there are always patterns of certain times that we do follow automatically; when we play an instrument with harmony we can feel the rhythm, our senses get coordinated, and our thoughts and memories are being translated into movements.
The human will works just as the well known scientific principle of the law of cause and effect; nothing comes from nothing and everything does have a motive, a reason and a meaning!

Long before, the Time and the seasons where being measured by Priest-Astronomers whom used to take on account the position of the sun, the moon and stars, this knowledge was often used to control individuals; telling them what to do so that they would evoke or cause or bring certain season. Now days many individuals believe in luck, chaos and free will witch is often begging used against them to control them.
Not because we are not always aware of the cause of everything, it means that everything does not have a cause. Or could there be other options? Does people really can will things with out first desire them? Could they take willingly actions with out think about them first? Is there any other option left that doesn’t sound dumber than these? Anyone that knows very well all these fields understand very well how our wills are very limited. It seems greatly incredible to me how the majority of the people cheat themselves about these over and over again tons of times every day. Well… maybe not so incredible, since it is understandable that certain circumstances can make people feel that some individual’s behaviors have no excuse, and so they get these feelings, emotions and desires that make them think that we do have free will, however, the pattern stills there. The thing is that when we can’t understand something it is way more easily to ignore it.
Here is a clearer quotation about the main idea:


The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.

Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.

· The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,
· Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,
· Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.

[L. Ray Smith, The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A (bible-truths.com)]

There are not many the people who do not believe on the lack of this supposedly human power to be able to choose things with out a reason, motive, or cause. And yes, it is overwhelming just to grasp whatever we can of the real meaning of this truth, overwhelming as well as humbling. There is not neutral position; there is not such thing as half free will or anything like that. But you still can un-freely keep advertising your self about how you can supposedly control your own destiny.

I Have a question.   If humans don't have a free will to choose to do good , What is the use of a judgment day?

  EJW

[aqrinc]

Hi EJW,

Great question You need to read:

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D

Ray went to exhaustive lengths to teach on this subject, do yourself a favor and read it a few times. You will be glad when you are finished and get a real understanding.

george.

[G. Driggs]

I Have a question.   If humans don't have a free will to choose to do good , What is the use of a judgment day?

  EJW

So that the Lord will be glorified and given all the credit for His achievement, not us.

Isa 10:15  Does an ax claim to be more important than the one who swings it? Does a saw brag that it is better than the one who uses it? That would be like a stick swinging someone who picks it up! It would be like a war club waving the one who carries it!

2Co 10:17  But, "The one who brags should brag about what the Lord has done." (Jeremiah 9:24)
2Co 10:18  Those who praise themselves are not accepted. Those the Lord praises are accepted.

Eph 2:8  God's grace has saved you because of your faith in Christ. Your salvation doesn't come from anything you do. It is God's gift.
Eph 2:9  It is not based on anything you have done. No one can brag about earning it.
Eph 2:10  God made us. He created us to belong to Christ Jesus. Now we can do good things. Long ago God prepared them for us to do.

God created us bad, and He will make us good through judgment (correction). I mean you know, God can do that, He is God.

Its very important to know good and evil like God does, and thats what this life (in part) is all about, learning the difference between the two. Ray says its all about the contrast.

A lack of free will has nothing to do with choosing to do good.
 
George (aqr) gives good advice, you would do very well to read those papers.

Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

[G. Driggs]

Hi again EJW, I also found this from 'The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A'
@http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

WHO HAS RESISTED GOD’S WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:

    "You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

    "Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).

GOD IS THE POTTER AND WE ARE THE POT

Could anything be plainer? God, the Potter, does not owe an explanation to the pot as to why He made the pot the way He desired! And God desires to make some pots honorable and some pots dishonorable. Why? Because He is a mean and nasty God? No, because He has a plan, a purpose, intentions, to save all humanity in the end. That IS THE "WILL" OF GOD. And if you will continue reading chapters 10 and 11 of Romans, you will plainly see that those who are lost along the way in God’s plan will all be saved in the end.

What is the conclusion of the whole matter—and I mean THE WHOLE MATTER? How good of a Potter is God? Will He have to destroy most of His pots for all eternity? If God is the Potter and we are the pot, how can the pot be responsible for ANYTHING?

This is God’s analogy, not mine. Seriously, can a pot be responsible for anything?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This also from 'The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B'
@http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

    "Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).

If the evil deed of selling Joseph into slavery was the "lemons," then it was GOD who made them lemons. Well doesn’t that then make God the evil One? No, no it doesn’t. Here is why. It all has to do with the intent of the heart.

From the intentions of the heart of Joseph’s brothers, the deed to sell Joseph into slavery down in Egypt was EVIL. But from the intention of the heart of GOD, the deed was one of great benevolence and righteousness! And the Scriptures actually say so in just so many words, when Joseph’s brothers did indeed bow down to him:

    "And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:18-20).

You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…" This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade. Why was this act a sin and an evil on the part of Joseph’s brothers? Because they "thought EVIL" against Joseph. And why was it NOT a sin or an evil when God takes credit for this act? Because "GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD." No, contrary to those who hate God’s ways, God is not evil, nor does He ever sin through all His dealings with evil on behalf of mankind’s good and eternal welfare.

One final point, just in case you didn’t catch it: Nowhere in any of these statements of Scripture do we see God "changing" the original evil of men into something good. No, not at all: for it was God, Himself Who is responsible for both the original act of evil and the final consummation of blessing.

Joseph plainly states that "God meant it unto good." The "it" was the evil act of Joseph’s brothers. God did not change "it" unto good. No, God meant for the "it" to take place—"it" was His doing. But God’s motivation for the "it" was for good and not evil as Joseph’s brothers intended. So God brought about the "it" by the dream that He caused Joseph to have. And it was God’s intention from the very conception of the "it" (the dirty deed) to be used for good!

And this IS how God operates. Not just with Joseph and his brothers, but with all humanity in all ages. "God is no respecter of persons," and "God changes not."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace, G.Driggs

[cjwood]

hey geo d.,
thank you so much for posting those 'free-will' writings by ray.  i needed to re-read them.  thanks Father God.  You are so cool. 

claudia

[cjwood]

mi amigo moises,

thank you baby brother for letting us read some of your thoughts.  our Father God is assuredly creating many strong men on this forum, as well as our precious brother ray, into His Image.  different ages, different backgrounds, but the same in Spirit.  awesome, totally awesome!

claudia

[Ninny]

Claudia, I am in 100% total agreement with you! God is doing an awesome job on the men here..you can see it happening!!  \o/
Kathy

[Lupac]

I hope nobody minds that I resurrects this topic. It's only a month old.   Anyway, I don't know how many people here have ever been to the Tentmaker site, it's how I first found out about universal salvation. I hung around the forums for a while, but they were discussing things like, I don't know, Trinity vs. One God, theories about Revelation, etc. I didn't really know what to believe. One of them directed me here, and that's how I found Ray's site. One of the hotly debated topics, that was stopped right before I got there was free will vs. sovereignty. One of the admins, along with the founder (Gary... something.) both believe fervently in free will. I don't, being a former Calvinist, I never really believed in it. So Ray's teachings weren't really that big of a shock to me.

Getting to my point, and question, the reason the admin said he believed in "free will" was that, in his words, well, here's what he said:

***No Outside Teaching***

He was responding to someone saying that "free will" leads to an "incredibly dangerous mindset" and that Satan was the one who first told that lie. My question is, how do you respond to this? Thanks.

[Dave in Tenn]

My question is, how do you respond to this? Thanks.

Lupac, are you asking how what Ray teaches relates to this?  Or are you asking how we might actually respond to the thread you referenced?

I'll leave the first possibility aside.  There are already sufficient links in this thread to lead you deeper to Ray's teaching on the subject.

If, on the other hand, you are asking how we might actually respond to a thread on another website, my answer would be:  I would not respond at all.  If you are asking us to supply YOU with ammo or answers, I would respectfully answer that IF you have to ask us, you are not yet equipped to answer.

If I've misunderstood your question, I apologize.   

[Lupac]

No no, I wasn't even in that thread I posted here. It's old and locked. I was't looking for any "ammo", I was just wondering what a good responce would be. Thanks though.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Lupac

It is unwise to answer or respond to a fool who is not wanting to know the Truth, who is despising God and is not knowing either Gods Word or God’s Power. This is not an answer. It is an endorsement of wise council given to you by Dave of T.
To look deeper into what you brought to the BT Forum, it is very easy to see immediately that the author of the quotation you have posted has not grasped a basic fact about God’s Word. There are Twelve  God-given Truths to understand His Word http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm  and the teaching in LOF  part one needs to be assimilated.  Ref quote,
The parables of Jesus are certainly true, but they are not literally true. unquote

God’s Word is NOT LITERAL. The author who’s quote you present here in the Forum, is looking at the Parable as a literal incident and is blind to the deeper meaning.

Psa 119:130  The entrance of Your Words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.

There can be no understanding if one is to treat God’s Word as literal or carnal.

Joh 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT AND TRUTH, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
Joh 4:24  God is As SPIRIT, AND they who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT AND in TRUTH.
Joh 14:17  the SPIRIT of TRUTH, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and  shall be in you.

The idol to the illusion that we have a free-will is a most vociferously, ruthlessly protected idol of the wicked heart.
 
1Ti 6:3  If anyone teaches otherwise, and does not consent to wholesome words (those of our Lord Jesus Christ), and to the doctrine according to godliness,
1Ti 6:4  he is proud, knowing nothing. He is sick concerning doubts and arguments, from which comes envy, strife, evil speakings, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5  meddling, of men whose minds have been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. Withdraw from such.

Lupac you know there is no such thing as free will.

2Ti 3:13  But evil men and seducers will go forward to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14  But CONTINUE IN THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE LEARNED AND HAVE BEEN ASSURED OF, knowing from whom you have learned…

Arc

[Lupac]

I hope nobody minds that I resurrects this topic. It's only a month old.   Anyway, I don't know how many people here have ever been to the Tentmaker site, it's how I first found out about universal salvation. I hung around the forums for a while, but they were discussing things like, I don't know, Trinity vs. One God, theories about Revelation, etc. I didn't really know what to believe. One of them directed me here, and that's how I found Ray's site. One of the hotly debated topics, that was stopped right before I got there was free will vs. sovereignty. One of the admins, along with the founder (Gary... something.) both believe fervently in free will. I don't, being a former Calvinist, I never really believed in it. So Ray's teachings weren't really that big of a shock to me.

Getting to my point, and question, the reason the admin said he believed in "free will" was that, in his words, well, here's what he said:

***No Outside Teaching***

He was responding to someone saying that "free will" leads to an "incredibly dangerous mindset" and that Satan was the one who first told that lie. My question is, how do you respond to this? Thanks.

Okay, that's it. Now, I'm just starting to get a little upset. I've searched through the forums. I've seen DOZENS of other people post information, and even other websites, and discuss them. Yet, I know I've been posting a lot, but anytime I ask about ANYTHING and use something as an example for my question, I instantly get modded. I KNOW there's no such thing as free will, I was just wondering about what that guy had said. Because, yeah, it did enter my mind why would Jesus say those things. I understand now, but I was just wondering. Thanks.

Also, it seems that some of you think I'm going out on the internet and IDK, debating other people on this. Let me state here, I'm not. I'm debating with myself, in my own mind. I could care lees what other people think about this or that, unless it relates to what I believe. Then, I try to figure out what is true.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Sorry you feel like you got modded Lupac. I was simply answering the quote you posted not you personally.

Arc

[Dave in Tenn]

OK then.  After thinking about it much of the night, what I would say is that of course Man is not only presented with choices, but makes choices constantly.  Because of his (our) carnal heart--the one He created us with--most of the choices we make are short of the Glory of God at best.  Before we got here, the choices of other people have been piling up and also influencing us in our choices.  So far, you and I understand that none of the choices anybody has made have been without a cause.  Ultimately, God is and has been that cause.

Does your guy not understand that the Word of God (and the preaching and hearing of the Word of God) is not also in and of itself a Cause for the choices we make?  It is no less a cause for people doing what they do than who their parents were.  

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That sure sounds like a list of Causes for the continual choices made by man to me.

Who is the man of God?  The one being made perfect.  The one He foreknew from the beginning.  The one who He is dragging to Himself against the current of his own carnality.

We can't understand Grace until we recognize the Sovereignty of God.  At least I couldn't.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a side note, I think you will find a lot of examples of members expressing reluctance to get into 3-way arguments and much more admonition to not get into arguments at all.  That's WHY I wanted to be clearer on what it was you were asking for.  This website is not for arguing, but for those of like-mind to gather.  But you explained yourself well.  

    

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Dave in T
This question is brilliantly articulated!~

Does your guy not understand that the Word of God (and the preaching and hearing of the Word of God) is not also in and of itself a Cause for the choices we make?

Here is a second witness to what you have pointed out.

Joh 11:24  Martha said to Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Joh 11:25  Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.

Martha, as soon as she heard Jesus was coming, she ran ahead to meet Him. Not Mary. Mary stayed behind in consolation among unbelievers. It was Martha who believed and it was Mary who sat giving Jesus an audience and hearing Him. Jesus did not tell Martha's sister to go and help her sister Martha to serve. It was Martha who believed and served.

It was Martha not Mary who was acknowledged by Jesus for her belief and so Lazarus was raised from the dead.

In other words, though Mary sat listening to Jesus and her part would not be taken from her, it was her sister fretting about serving who ran ahead and to whom Jesus acknowledged her belief!

Martha, the sister of him who died, said to Him, Lord, by this time he stinks. For it is the fourth day.
Joh 11:40  Jesus answered HER, Did I not say TO YOU that if YOU(Martha) would believe YOU  would see the glory of God?

A few others got to see and came to believe that day!
Arc