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[gallenwalsh]

Just trying to put something together in my head.What's left of it. There are seven churches, seven spirits of god and a just man will fall seven times. How are any of these connected if at all. Appreciate an help.

[Dennis Vogel]

"a just man will fall seven times" could have been written seventy or many times IMO. No connection.

[G. Driggs]

Hello gallenwalsh, I found these from Ray's papers, they are a very good read and I humbly suggest you read them.

Excerpt From 'Who is the Beast? - 666?'
@http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

The Seven [COMPLETE] Churches of God represent the WHOLE CHURCH OF GOD in all generations. And so, what is it that God says those who are ALREADY IN THE CHURCH have to do if they are to overcome and be in the Kingdom of God? Answer:

    "Remember therefore from whence you are FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).

THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST

I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God’s called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.

The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times…" That’s a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God’s plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "…and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for

    "Who are you that judges another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).

We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:

    "Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!

When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.

This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this

    "…beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."

He was wounded to death, but the wound was healed and he again lived. He also has a mark, and a name, and a number. What is this mysterious number that has baffled scholars, theologians, and saints for centuries? I will not give you the complete answer to this at this time, but will only show you that it is the number of mankind—humanity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seven symbolizes completeness, six symbolizing just missing the mark (sinful humanity) of that completeness. Someday though we will all be complete in Him and Him in us.

Might I suggest you read Ray's 'The Book of Revelation is a Book of Symbols'
@http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

That would be a good start IMO.

As for the "connection" there is none, like Dennis said. Its just a number that symbolizes something else and can be used in many ways in Scriptures, and they dont necessarily have to be connected.

Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

[cjwood]

Excerpt From 'Who is the Beast? - 666?'
@http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

The Seven [COMPLETE] Churches of God represent the WHOLE CHURCH OF GOD in all generations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as i started to read the beginning of the excerpt of ray's that george posted, this statement by ray, which is represented in Scripture, kind of just jumped out at me.  i was thinking of gallenwalsh's original question, and was thinking about what ray said, and saw in the words that 'seven' represents the 'whole' .  so, like, sometimes the number 7 can mean 7, and sometimes, it being representative of something else, it may be wwaayyyy more than 7. 

thanks for the opportunity to see this anew gdriggs!

claudia

[Fester]

"a just man will fall seven times" could have been written seventy or many times IMO. No connection.

But can you back that up?

[G. Driggs]

Hi Fester, I know you didnt ask me, but you got me curious so I had to share what I thought might be helpful.

From Strongs Hebrew Dictionary.

Pro 24:16  ForH3588 a justH6662 man fallethH5307 sevenH7651 times, and riseth up again:H6965 but the wickedH7563 shall fallH3782 into mischief.H7451

H7651
שׁבעה    שׁבע
sheba‛  shib‛âh
sheh'-bah, shib-aw'
From H7650; a primitive cardinal number; seven (as the sacred full one); also (adverbially) seven times; by implication a week; by extension an indefinite number: -  (+ by) seven ([-fold], -s, [-teen, -teenth], -th, times). Compare H7658.

Maybe Im reading this wrong but it seems "seven times" does not always have to mean literally falling seven times. What matters is that it was a complete fall. All of humanity has or will completely fall from grace, wether it be 7 times or 70 billion times, and God will make all humanity stand again.

Can this same idea from one of Jesus' parables be applied to "a just man falleth seven times"?

Mat 18:21  Peter came to Jesus. He asked, "Lord, how many times should I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22  Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times.

Luk 17:3  So watch what you do. "If your brother sins, tell him he is wrong. Then if he turns away from his sins, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  Suppose he sins against you seven times in one day. And suppose he comes back to you each time and says, 'I'm sorry.' Forgive him."

Anyone have any thoughts, ideas, or more Scriptures?

Peace, G.Driggs

[Marky Mark]

"a just man will fall seven times" could have been written seventy or many times IMO. No connection.

But can you back that up?

Hello Fester. Email reply from Ray. Hope it helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7638.0.html

 Dear Thabo:  Don't become discourage until you no longer desire to stop sinning. Should that happen in your life, you are will be in big trouble. Remember:

    Pro 24:16 For a just man falls seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

    "Seven" in Scripture can mean complete or perfect, but it also has a similar meaning to the number 1000, which can mean "as many as there are or as long as is necessary."

    God be with you,

    Ray





Peace...Mark

[Fester]

Hello Fester. Email reply from Ray. Hope it helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7638.0.html

 Dear Thabo:  Don't become discourage until you no longer desire to stop sinning. Should that happen in your life, you are will be in big trouble. Remember:

    Pro 24:16 For a just man falls seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

    "Seven" in Scripture can mean complete or perfect, but it also has a similar meaning to the number 1000, which can mean "as many as there are or as long as is necessary."

    God be with you,

    Ray

Peace...Mark

Thanks to all who have replied to my question as it is helping my understanding greatly.  Now how does Ray use the scriptures to support that 7 has a similar meaning to 1000, and furthermore support that that 1000 can mean many or as long as necessary?
 
 

[cjwood]

Thanks to all who have replied to my question as it is helping my understanding greatly.  Now how does Ray use the scriptures to support that 7 has a similar meaning to 1000, and furthermore support that that 1000 can mean many or as long as necessary?
  

i think the best way to find out how ray uses the scriptures to support the 7 ...or anything else, is to just drop him an email.  he will let you know. 

claudia

[Fester]

Thanks to all who have replied to my question as it is helping my understanding greatly.  Now how does Ray use the scriptures to support that 7 has a similar meaning to 1000, and furthermore support that that 1000 can mean many or as long as necessary?
   

i think the best way to find out how ray uses the scriptures to support the 7 ...or anything else, is to just drop him an email.  he will let you know.  

claudia

I just may if no member here knows the answer.  With Ray's health issues and being as busy as he is I only email him as a last resort.
Thanks once again to all.
 

[G. Driggs]

I think Strong's Dictionary definition of seven is right on, and it seems to go with what Ray says.

H7651
שׁבעה    שׁבע
sheba‛  shib‛âh
sheh'-bah, shib-aw'
From H7650; a primitive cardinal number; seven (as the sacred full one); also (adverbially) seven times; by implication a week; BY EXTENSION AN INDEFINITE NUMBER: -  (+ by) seven ([-fold], -s, [-teen, -teenth], -th, times). Compare H7658.

Websters definition of "indefinite"

Indefinite

INDEF'INITE, a. [L. indefinitus; in and definitus, definio, to define; de and finio, to end, finis, end.]

1. Not limited or defined; not determinate; not precise or certain; as an indefinite time. An indefinite proposition, term or phrase, is one which has not a precise meaning or limited signification.

2. That has no certain limits, or to which the human mind can affix none, as indefinite space. A space may be indefinite, though not infinite.

Like Ray always says, "pay attention to all the words".

Hope this helps

G.Driggs

[Marky Mark]

Thanks to all who have replied to my question as it is helping my understanding greatly.  Now how does Ray use the scriptures to support that 7 has a similar meaning to 1000, and furthermore support that that 1000 can mean many or as long as necessary?
 
 

From what I have come to learn in Scripture the number seven throughout the bible has always denoted the meaning of the words "fullness and complete" so, as to mean perfection.This number has been used to that end many times throughout Scripture.

Numbers that are used in Scripture always seem to denote a symbolism that pertain to an age when used as a symbol of time. The use of the word day [yom] can be of an age also.God created the universe and everything in it and said that it was good. These six days of creation were what led up to the seventh day,which would mean a complete or perfect day [number seven/age/rest].So to me at least, if 1000 denotes a period of time that I have come by to mean an age,well then that age is and was made by God to be a perfect number which would coincide with the number seven [full and complete].Time as we know it is not above the time that God uses to perfect His works.

The verse below, I think, can relate to what I speak of.

2Pe 3:8 Now of this one thing you are not to be oblivious, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years are in Your eyes Like yesterday's day when it has passed, Or like a vigil in the night."

As Ray has stated on many occasions,the bible is one giant parable.With the help of Ray and of course the Spirit of God,I can only begin to understand what the Word is showing me in my own small mind. With the Spirit leading me,I can only count my blessings in this journey called life. Hope this helps some. Any help and correction welcome.

All Praise and Glory to the Father.



Peace...Mark

[Dennis Vogel]

"a just man will fall seven times" could have been written seventy or many times IMO. No connection.

But can you back that up?

Thinking more about this, I agree with what others have said. Seven means a man will fall until he is perfected, but the number is symbolic, every man falls thousands of times.