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[mharrell08]

I stumbled across this email today. I also previously thought 1 Tim 6:16 was referring to Christ as well:

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5630.0.html):

Dear Gary:  A few years ago I realized that even I carelessly assumed that "Who only has immortality..." was speaking of Jesus. This apparently is not the case in these verses. Yes, Jesus NOW possesses immortality as we all will one day, but in this case the reference is to God His Father:

"I give you charge in the sight of GOD..." (I Tim. 6:13).

"Which in HIS [God's] times HE [God] shall show..."  (Verse 15).

"Who [God, not Jesus] has [inherently, not from another source] immortality dwelling in the LIGHT [God is 'the Father of lights' James 1:17] which no man can approach unto; Whom [God not Jesus] no has seen, nor can see [God the Father has no man ever seen, not Jesus, John 1:18; 5:37, etc.)..." (Verse 16).

God be with you,

Ray


I wasn't going to put on the forum until thinking how many of us have quoted this scripture in reference to Christ. Just more of an FYI...

Marques


P.S. Just in case anyone asks, 'Well where are we told Christ is made immortal?':

1 Cor 15:49-50 & 53  ...as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [image of Christ...Rom 8:29, Col 1:15]. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption...for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

As Christ is immortal, we shall me fashioned like him and also be given immortality.

[Samson]

Marques,

             I have a question and/or a clarification resulting from pondering on Thread in reference to 1Timothy.6:16. Prior to reading your Post, I already, in the past interpreted that Scripture as referring to God the Father and substantiated by the Email to Gary from Ray. Jesus being dead for three days adds to the support that he didn't have immortality(Deathlessness) at the time, but was given immortality after his Resurrection from the dead. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom; 1Cor. 15:49-53, as you correctly stated. This brings me to my request for a clarification or question: Was Jesus immortal prior to his existence as a Human Being on Earth. My past understanding is he wasn't, but I don't know. He's the Creator, God's Spokesman(The Word) and Jehovah of the Old Testament and we know He had a beginning, but just was hoping you'd clarify Our(Rays View) stance on this.

                                    Thankyou, Samson.
P.S. I'll see if I can find an Email from Ray about this, in the meantime, never noticed one before.

[aqrinc]

Hi Marques,

I went on a Treasure Hunt to find Immortality and Giving of Such; without using the Scripture you had already quoted. Here are some more that i think support and more directly state that Jesus Christ Is Immortal. Let me know if i am off base, there were several more Scripture that did not as directly give this message.

Joh 6:27 (WNT)
Bestow your pains not on the food which perishes, but on the food that remains unto the Life of the Ages--that food which will be the Son of Man's gift to you; for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

All the quotes below are from: (TCNT 20th Century NT) which is available on esword.

Joh 6:27
Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for Immortal Life, which the Son of Man will give you; for upon him the Father--God himself--has set the seal of his approval."

Joh 10:28
And I give them Immortal Life, and they shall not be lost; nor shall any one snatch them out of my hands.

Rom 5:21
In order than, just as Sin had reigned in the realm of Death, so, too, might Loving-kindness reign through righteousness, and result in Immortal Life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Rom 6:23
The wages of Sin are Death, but the gift of God is Immortal Life, through union with Christ Jesus, our Lord.

1Jn 1:2
That Life was made visible, and we have seen it, and now bear our testimony to it, and tell you of that Immortal Life, which was with the Father and was made visible to us.

1Jn 5:11
And that testimony is that God gave us Immortal Life, and that this Life is in his Son.

george.

[mharrell08]

Marques,

             I have a question and/or a clarification resulting from pondering on Thread in reference to 1Timothy.6:16. Prior to reading your Post, I already, in the past interpreted that Scripture as referring to God the Father and substantiated by the Email to Gary from Ray. Jesus being dead for three days adds to the support that he didn't have immortality(Deathlessness) at the time, but was given immortality after his Resurrection from the dead. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom; 1Cor. 15:49-53, as you correctly stated. This brings me to my request for a clarification or question: Was Jesus immortal prior to his existence as a Human Being on Earth. My past understanding is he wasn't, but I don't know. He's the Creator, God's Spokesman(The Word) and Jehovah of the Old Testament and we know He had a beginning, but just was hoping you'd clarify Our(Rays View) stance on this.

                                    Thankyou, Samson.
P.S. I'll see if I can find an Email from Ray about this, in the meantime, never noticed one before.

Here's an excerpt from Ray's Notes from 2009 Conference (http://bible-truths.com/Notes/Mobile2009.htm):

I've been accused of blasphemy for stating that I believe Jesus is entitled to the title 'God'.  I believe that Jesus IS the Creator Whom God the Father used to create the heavens and the earth.  I believe that Jesus (as Jehovah) EMPTIED HIMSELF of His power, honor, and glory to be MADE a little while LOWER than the angels so that He could indeed DIE for the sins of His Own creatures, His Own creation. Well I believe it is blasphemy to 'bring Him DOWN' as the rock opera suggests to the level of 'JUST A MAN', when in reality, He was the DIVINE CREATED SON OF GOD HIS FATHER.

Jesus EMPTIED Himself of His prior divinity and took upon Him the form of a man and the form of sinful flesh.

Phi 2:6-7-- Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,

(ASV)  but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

(Rotherham) But, himself, emptied, taking, a servant's form, coming to be, in men's likeness;

(YLT)  but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

Emphatic Diaglott:  'But divested [to strip, as of clothing; to deprive, as of rights; to free of;  to rid of;  to divest, deprive of a TITLE, or right]  Himself, taking a Bondman's Form, having been MADE in the likeness of Men.'

If Jesus were 'just a man' why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all?  Why couldn't He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER?  Why?  Why did He need to be more than 'JUST a man?'  Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?

Also, as Christ states:

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

As Ray points out from the scriptures, Christ emptied or divested himself of all divinity for the express purpose of dying. If He was mortal and could die, there would be no need to empty Himself of anything. So yes, Christ was immortal before divesting Himself of all His glory for the purpose of dying.


George,

There are very few scriptures which use 'athanasia' (3 in fact) which means 'deathlessness'. Two times are used in 1 Cor 15 and the other is 1 Tim 6:16 which is referenced above.

There are several which use 'aphtharsia' or it's root 'aphthartos' which both mean incorruption, immortality, or even sincerity...sometimes it refers to our reward [1 Cor 9:25, 1 Pet 1:4] others referring to how we should conduct ourselves in sincerity (pure mind & heart) in a corruptible world [1 Pet 3:4, Tit 2:7]. And others, it is talking about immortality [2 Tim 1:10, Rom 1:23].

Try Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm) and look up 'immortality'...they'll show all the different occurrences and the multiple Strong's references for them. Greek # 110, 861, & 862.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Samson]

Thanks Marques,

                        I went to the notes myself, after seeking clarification and also read the copied and pasted below from your last post.

                           Part of your last post copied and pasted in Blue giving clarification.


Phi 2:6-7-- Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,

(ASV)  but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

(Rotherham) But, himself, emptied, taking, a servant's form, coming to be, in men's likeness;

(YLT)  but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

Emphatic Diaglott:  'But divested [to strip, as of clothing; to deprive, as of rights; to free of;  to rid of;  to divest, deprive of a TITLE, or right]  Himself, taking a Bondman's Form, having been MADE in the likeness of Men.'

If Jesus were 'just a man' why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all?  Why couldn't He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER?  Why?  Why did He need to be more than 'JUST a man?'  Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?

Also, as Christ states:

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

As Ray points out from the scriptures, Christ emptied or divested himself of all divinity for the express purpose of dying. If He was mortal and could die, there would be no need to empty Himself of anything. So yes, Christ was immortal before divesting Himself of all His glory for the purpose of dying


       Whoops, forgot to change the color, Samson.

[Marky Mark]

A little addition. Why did He empty Himself?




http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth.  He did something to acquire God’s glory, something.  Because He had it and He didn’t get it for nothing. 
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters.  He has a desire to have something like Himself.  But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff.  So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God.  And to never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through.  He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly.  But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see. 

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins.  That’s true, that’s the scripture, Christ died for our sin.  But then we have a scripture here that doesn’t mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,”

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it’s saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying.  What this is saying is God loved us, in this way.  This is the manner and way in which He loved us.  In this way He loved the world.

“…that He gave His only begotten Son,”

Ok, He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

 “…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Of course the Bible is written so man don’t understand it.  That’s why some of these things are put in there, “that who-so-ever believes.”  God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe.  So the ‘who-so-ever’ is going to be everybody, ok. 

But He gave His Son, now here’s the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn’t have to do anything, HE’S GOD!  Why did He? 
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do?  I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE! 
But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can’t die. 
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die. 
Then they will know We love them. 
Then they will know.




Peace...Mark

[cjwood]

A little addition. Why did He empty Himself?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

...But He gave His Son, now here’s the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn’t have to do anything, HE’S GOD!  Why did He? 
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do?  I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE!  But God can’t die, He’s eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can’t die. 
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.  
Then they will know We love them. 
Then they will know.

mark,
thanks for posting this portion of ray's teaching on 'who is Jesus'.  it is one of my favorite teachings ray has provided us with.

claudia

p.s.  thanks bunches marques for starting this thread, and to samson and george too thanks guys!