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Christ Immortality
mharrell08:
I stumbled across this email today. I also previously thought 1 Tim 6:16 was referring to Christ as well:
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5630.0.html):
Dear Gary: A few years ago I realized that even I carelessly assumed that "Who only has immortality..." was speaking of Jesus. This apparently is not the case in these verses. Yes, Jesus NOW possesses immortality as we all will one day, but in this case the reference is to God His Father:
"I give you charge in the sight of GOD..." (I Tim. 6:13).
"Which in HIS [God's] times HE [God] shall show..." (Verse 15).
"Who [God, not Jesus] has [inherently, not from another source] immortality dwelling in the LIGHT [God is 'the Father of lights' James 1:17] which no man can approach unto; Whom [God not Jesus] no has seen, nor can see [God the Father has no man ever seen, not Jesus, John 1:18; 5:37, etc.)..." (Verse 16).
God be with you,
Ray
I wasn't going to put on the forum until thinking how many of us have quoted this scripture in reference to Christ. Just more of an FYI...
Marques
P.S. Just in case anyone asks, 'Well where are we told Christ is made immortal?':
1 Cor 15:49-50 & 53 ...as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [image of Christ...Rom 8:29, Col 1:15]. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption...for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
As Christ is immortal, we shall me fashioned like him and also be given immortality.
Samson:
Marques,
I have a question and/or a clarification resulting from pondering on Thread in reference to 1Timothy.6:16. Prior to reading your Post, I already, in the past interpreted that Scripture as referring to God the Father and substantiated by the Email to Gary from Ray. Jesus being dead for three days adds to the support that he didn't have immortality(Deathlessness) at the time, but was given immortality after his Resurrection from the dead. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom; 1Cor. 15:49-53, as you correctly stated. This brings me to my request for a clarification or question: Was Jesus immortal prior to his existence as a Human Being on Earth. My past understanding is he wasn't, but I don't know. He's the Creator, God's Spokesman(The Word) and Jehovah of the Old Testament and we know He had a beginning, but just was hoping you'd clarify Our(Rays View) stance on this.
Thankyou, Samson.
P.S. I'll see if I can find an Email from Ray about this, in the meantime, never noticed one before.
aqrinc:
Hi Marques,
I went on a Treasure Hunt to find Immortality and Giving of Such; without using the Scripture you had already quoted. Here are some more that i think support and more directly state that Jesus Christ Is Immortal. Let me know if i am off base, there were several more Scripture that did not as directly give this message.
Joh 6:27 (WNT)
Bestow your pains not on the food which perishes, but on the food that remains unto the Life of the Ages--that food which will be the Son of Man's gift to you; for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
All the quotes below are from: (TCNT 20th Century NT) which is available on esword.
Joh 6:27
Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for Immortal Life, which the Son of Man will give you; for upon him the Father--God himself--has set the seal of his approval."
Joh 10:28
And I give them Immortal Life, and they shall not be lost; nor shall any one snatch them out of my hands.
Rom 5:21
In order than, just as Sin had reigned in the realm of Death, so, too, might Loving-kindness reign through righteousness, and result in Immortal Life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Rom 6:23
The wages of Sin are Death, but the gift of God is Immortal Life, through union with Christ Jesus, our Lord.
1Jn 1:2
That Life was made visible, and we have seen it, and now bear our testimony to it, and tell you of that Immortal Life, which was with the Father and was made visible to us.
1Jn 5:11
And that testimony is that God gave us Immortal Life, and that this Life is in his Son.
george. :)
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Samson on November 17, 2009, 05:40:52 PM ---Marques,
I have a question and/or a clarification resulting from pondering on Thread in reference to 1Timothy.6:16. Prior to reading your Post, I already, in the past interpreted that Scripture as referring to God the Father and substantiated by the Email to Gary from Ray. Jesus being dead for three days adds to the support that he didn't have immortality(Deathlessness) at the time, but was given immortality after his Resurrection from the dead. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom; 1Cor. 15:49-53, as you correctly stated. This brings me to my request for a clarification or question: Was Jesus immortal prior to his existence as a Human Being on Earth. My past understanding is he wasn't, but I don't know. He's the Creator, God's Spokesman(The Word) and Jehovah of the Old Testament and we know He had a beginning, but just was hoping you'd clarify Our(Rays View) stance on this.
Thankyou, Samson.
P.S. I'll see if I can find an Email from Ray about this, in the meantime, never noticed one before.
--- End quote ---
Here's an excerpt from Ray's Notes from 2009 Conference (http://bible-truths.com/Notes/Mobile2009.htm):
I've been accused of blasphemy for stating that I believe Jesus is entitled to the title 'God'. I believe that Jesus IS the Creator Whom God the Father used to create the heavens and the earth. I believe that Jesus (as Jehovah) EMPTIED HIMSELF of His power, honor, and glory to be MADE a little while LOWER than the angels so that He could indeed DIE for the sins of His Own creatures, His Own creation. Well I believe it is blasphemy to 'bring Him DOWN' as the rock opera suggests to the level of 'JUST A MAN', when in reality, He was the DIVINE CREATED SON OF GOD HIS FATHER.
Jesus EMPTIED Himself of His prior divinity and took upon Him the form of a man and the form of sinful flesh.
Phi 2:6-7-- Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
(ASV) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
(Rotherham) But, himself, emptied, taking, a servant's form, coming to be, in men's likeness;
(YLT) but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
Emphatic Diaglott: 'But divested [to strip, as of clothing; to deprive, as of rights; to free of; to rid of; to divest, deprive of a TITLE, or right] Himself, taking a Bondman's Form, having been MADE in the likeness of Men.'
If Jesus were 'just a man' why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all? Why couldn't He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER? Why? Why did He need to be more than 'JUST a man?' Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?
Also, as Christ states:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
As Ray points out from the scriptures, Christ emptied or divested himself of all divinity for the express purpose of dying. If He was mortal and could die, there would be no need to empty Himself of anything. So yes, Christ was immortal before divesting Himself of all His glory for the purpose of dying.
George,
There are very few scriptures which use 'athanasia' (3 in fact) which means 'deathlessness'. Two times are used in 1 Cor 15 and the other is 1 Tim 6:16 which is referenced above.
There are several which use 'aphtharsia' or it's root 'aphthartos' which both mean incorruption, immortality, or even sincerity...sometimes it refers to our reward [1 Cor 9:25, 1 Pet 1:4] others referring to how we should conduct ourselves in sincerity (pure mind & heart) in a corruptible world [1 Pet 3:4, Tit 2:7]. And others, it is talking about immortality [2 Tim 1:10, Rom 1:23].
Try Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm) and look up 'immortality'...they'll show all the different occurrences and the multiple Strong's references for them. Greek # 110, 861, & 862.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Samson:
Thanks Marques,
I went to the notes myself, after seeking clarification and also read the copied and pasted below from your last post.
Part of your last post copied and pasted in Blue giving clarification.
Phi 2:6-7-- Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God, nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
(ASV) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
(Rotherham) But, himself, emptied, taking, a servant's form, coming to be, in men's likeness;
(YLT) but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
Emphatic Diaglott: 'But divested [to strip, as of clothing; to deprive, as of rights; to free of; to rid of; to divest, deprive of a TITLE, or right] Himself, taking a Bondman's Form, having been MADE in the likeness of Men.'
If Jesus were 'just a man' why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all? Why couldn't He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER? Why? Why did He need to be more than 'JUST a man?' Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?
Also, as Christ states:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
As Ray points out from the scriptures, Christ emptied or divested himself of all divinity for the express purpose of dying. If He was mortal and could die, there would be no need to empty Himself of anything. So yes, Christ was immortal before divesting Himself of all His glory for the purpose of dying
Whoops, forgot to change the color, Samson.
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