Falling away first.

[gallenwalsh]

Any one have any insight as to why there must be a falling away first as part of our growth experience in Christ ? I have read some of Ray's writings on the subject but, that I know of ,he never hit on why ?

[Kat]

Hi Gallenwalsh,

1Co 15:46  But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.

First we will build our house upon the sand, WE think we have done what we need to do to save ourselves, with our free will and all of course.  This is our physical attempt at salvation.  But this is all a false facade that we have to go through so that we will realize when God finally opens our eyes that WE can do nothing, it is all up to Him.  This is then our spiritual salvation.  We must first go into darkness to that we can fully appreciate the light.

Luke 1:79  To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
       To guide our feet into the way of peace."

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Here are a couple of excerpts that speak about this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html --------------------

                                          ALL FALL AWAY

I showed numerous times that all: leave their first love, forsake Jesus, look back, blaspheme, build a spiritual house upon the sand, etc.

It is when John is standing on the sand of the sea that he first sees the wild beast come up out of the sea. Now the questions become: "WHEN did John stand upon the sand in HIS life? WHEN do we stand upon the sand in OUR lives?

Answer: When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a 'GREAT FALL.' When (notice I did not say, 'IF')...when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn't mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!

And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! This wild beast will be reckoned with by all humanity sooner or later.

THERE MUST COME A 'FALLING AWAY' FIRST

I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God's called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.

The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times..." That's a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God's plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "...and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for

"Who are you that judges another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).

We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:

"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!

When John's spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.

This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this

"...beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."


http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html -------------------

Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT..." (Rev. 2:5).

Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to 'remember from whence we are FALLEN...' Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for 'love'] never fails..." (I Cor. 13:.

Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:8 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.
-----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jennie]

Maybe we have to "fall" before we ever reach our hands up to be plucked from the icy waters of the sea......... That takes away all the buildings, religious platitudes....when you are going under ,,,it's only about God.

[gallenwalsh]

Thank you once again,.....that was very helpful. Just feels really good to be here.

[Ninny]

Hi G. there is so much to learn..sometimes it's a little overwhelming, and sometimes there are more questions than answers at first, but soon you'll learn to find everything so don't get discouraged!! 
Kathy

[Roy Martin]

Hi Gallenwalsh, Your getting after it with the questions. I love your enthusiasm, and the fire going on inside you. Very inspiring. Keep it up.

Peace
Roy

[Hiratnz]

My old house fell praise the Lord now the Lord is building a new one i don't think it wise to patch up the old one anyway the old cannot facilitate all the new things that the Spirit has given me the old was built on  the sand so it had to be demolished the New is on solid ROCK  praise  the Lord creator of heaven and Earth

[daywalker]

Hi G. there is so much to learn..sometimes it's a little overwhelming, and sometimes there are more questions than answers at first, but soon you'll learn to find everything so don't get discouraged!! 
Kathy

Ditto!!!


Hey G,

I would also add the recommendation that you read through Ray's articles again... and again... They are packed air-tight with so much Spiritual knowledge that it's easy to miss things the first time around.. and even the second...

I've read through the entire LOF Series 3 times.. and each time I found many things I had missed [or hadn't 'digested'] the first or the second time. Much of this has to do with the 'programming' that we have gone through both in Babylon and in the world. [...words of an I.T. here, can't you tell?]


Anyways, God Bless and welcome to the Brighter Side. 

Daywalker 

[Dave in Tenn]

My old house fell praise the Lord now the Lord is building a new one i don't think it wise to patch up the old one anyway the old cannot facilitate all the new things that the Spirit has given me the old was built on  the sand so it had to be demolished the New is on solid ROCK  praise  the Lord creator of heaven and Earth

Amen.  No patch-jobs.  "Great is the fall thereof" is a GOOD thing.

[aqrinc]

Never thought i would enjoy seeing houses being destroyed by flood. This River Of Living Water Sure Pack a Doozy of a Wallop; Praise GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mat 7: 24-29 (MKJV)
24  Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock.
25  And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house. And it did not fall, for it was founded on a rock.

26  And everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them shall be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27  And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the wind blew and beat on that house. And it fell, and great was its fall.

28  And it happened, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His doctrine.
29  For He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

george.

[cjwood]

My old house fell praise the Lord now the Lord is building a new one i don't think it wise to patch up the old one anyway the old cannot facilitate all the new things that the Spirit has given me the old was built on  the sand so it had to be demolished the New is on solid ROCK  praise  the Lord creator of heaven and Earth

hiratnz,
your post reminded me of luke 5:36-39.   

thanks,
claudia

[Lupac]

Hi! I joined this forum because of this very question. Is it okay if I post here instead of making a new topic? I'm not sure how to know if I've fallen, or left my "first love". (I'm not even quite sure what my "first love" is.) I found about about this wonderful site through the Tentmaker site. Anyway, as I've been reading through Ray's LoF series, I've agreed with every word of it, but when I came to chapter 13 & 14, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. I didn't understand it very well. I'm not sure what he means by falling away; to me, it means renouncing your belief in God or Jesus and doing something else, or leaving religion altogether. That has always been my worst fear. I was raised a very strict reformed Calvinist, so the "no free will" part didn't bother me too much, but it was still kind of a shock, because I always kind of believed in free will, because my church taught that only the "elect" will get to heaven, which God has already preordained. (So basically, God already decided to put most people in hell.) I couldn't accept that, so I believed that God would give everyone one chance, or something. I don't know, it wasn't scriptural, but to me, it was a lot more merciful.

I then started reading on the internet about hell. I have often worried, very much, that ether I had committed the "un-pardonable sin", or that I was just going to hell because I couldn't "believe enough". I was told by many people that all I had to do was believe, but sometimes, believing is the hardest thing you can ask anyone to do.  Anyway, I found the Tentmaker site, and then this site. It's helped me so much, and I thank God every day that men like Ray Smith are here. But anyway, back to my first question, can anyone help me?

I also found this site in my search about hell called "New Wine for the End Times". That site still bothers me. (I don't want to look it up to post it, but you can Google it.) It's written by some hick from North Carolina, in it, he "refutes" universal salvation for his own his own doctrine, which is a weird mix of "free will" (He's VERY free will oriented.) Jewish "end times" and falling away/committing the un-pardonable sin/receiving the mark of the beast/rejecting God which is the way to hell. I've never seen anyone refute this guy, mostly because no one knows who he is, but if anyone could help me with that, that would be great.

I know this is a lot of questions, but I haven't been feeling okay in a long time. Last year, due to genetics, and my own fear and worry, I developed obsessive compulsive disorder. I would have very worrisome, obsessive thoughts. (Mostly about me going to hell, or... (I don't even like to type this.) Worrying that Satan was really god, or in charge, or something.) I'm still working to over come this, but I'm afraid God is angry with me about it. I've prayed countless times, asking him to forgive me for them, and asking him to help me. I found a good psychiatrist last year, and he helped me a lot, but I still get the thoughts about Satan, and they worry me.

Thank you all for listening.

[Ninny]

Lupac/Bryant, I just read your other post I'm glad you've joined us!  Here is something to remember...When you ask God to forgive you HE forgives YOU!! He chooses to FORGET!! WE can't forget!! Human nature, I suppose..BUT we have to REMEMBER THAT GOD FORGETS!! What God has forgiven IS FORGIVEN!! There is now therefore no condemnation.. We are our own worst enemy most of the time..guilt is a powerful prison guard! But Jesus has done that work of redemption for us! we are bought with a price..So you have to remember..what lengths God has gone to because He is so much in love with his children! He sings over us! GOD SINGS OVER YOU!!! I have no solutions for your dilemma, except that when you can grasp the idea that God is not a monster in the sky, that He is not only God but YOUR FATHER WHO LOVES YOU! His love is extreme and there is no other like it! THEN you can begin to believe that you are really forgiven! I will pray for those strongholds of the mind to be broken and that God's love with shine so clearly to you that there is no doubt left! \o/
Kathy

[Marky Mark]

Hi! I joined this forum because of this very question. Is it okay if I post here instead of making a new topic? I'm not sure how to know if I've fallen, or left my "first love". (I'm not even quite sure what my "first love" is.) I found about about this wonderful site through the Tentmaker site. Anyway, as I've been reading through Ray's LoF series, I've agreed with every word of it, but when I came to chapter 13 & 14, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. I didn't understand it very well. I'm not sure what he means by falling away; to me, it means renouncing your belief in God or Jesus and doing something else, or leaving religion altogether. That has always been my worst fear. I was raised a very strict reformed Calvinist, so the "no free will" part didn't bother me too much, but it was still kind of a shock, because I always kind of believed in free will, because my church taught that only the "elect" will get to heaven, which God has already preordained. (So basically, God already decided to put most people in hell.) I couldn't accept that, so I believed that God would give everyone one chance, or something. I don't know, it wasn't scriptural, but to me, it was a lot more merciful.

I then started reading on the internet about hell. I have often worried, very much, that ether I had committed the "un-pardonable sin", or that I was just going to hell because I couldn't "believe enough". I was told by many people that all I had to do was believe, but sometimes, believing is the hardest thing you can ask anyone to do.  Anyway, I found the Tentmaker site, and then this site. It's helped me so much, and I thank God every day that men like Ray Smith are here. But anyway, back to my first question, can anyone help me?

I also found this site in my search about hell called "New Wine for the End Times". That site still bothers me. (I don't want to look it up to post it, but you can Google it.) It's written by some hick from North Carolina, in it, he "refutes" universal salvation for his own his own doctrine, which is a weird mix of "free will" (He's VERY free will oriented.) Jewish "end times" and falling away/committing the un-pardonable sin/receiving the mark of the beast/rejecting God which is the way to hell. I've never seen anyone refute this guy, mostly because no one knows who he is, but if anyone could help me with that, that would be great.

I know this is a lot of questions, but I haven't been feeling okay in a long time. Last year, due to genetics, and my own fear and worry, I developed obsessive compulsive disorder. I would have very worrisome, obsessive thoughts. (Mostly about me going to hell, or... (I don't even like to type this.) Worrying that Satan was really god, or in charge, or something.) I'm still working to over come this, but I'm afraid God is angry with me about it. I've prayed countless times, asking him to forgive me for them, and asking him to help me. I found a good psychiatrist last year, and he helped me a lot, but I still get the thoughts about Satan, and they worry me.

Thank you all for listening.

Hello and welcome to the forum Lupac.

I'm not sure how to know if I've fallen, or left my "first love". (I'm not even quite sure what my "first love" is.)

Here are a few email replys from Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7112.0.html

Dear Heather:  My "First Love" was my first desire to repent and come out of this world and follow God's way, which I then deserted to a large extent and went back into the world, and then repented and returned to my First Love.  My Web Master formats and proof reads my material, and another good friend proof reads it. No one actually makes corrections to anything I teach.  Some of our older material is being proof read by a Doctor who has volunteered. He has made many spelling corrections so far.

God be with you,

Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7618.0.html

Dear Reader: Quite to the contrary. Many have left their initial belief and acceptance of God and Jesus and have gone back into the world with a spiritually-minded vengeance!  Thankfully, God recalls some out of that condition, as He has done with you. All we who have "left our First Love" have similar feelings about how stupid, and selfish, and carnal we became.  But it is good to feel guilt and shame. These emotions help to continuously keep us from committing the same sins or to the same degree.  We have to "COME OUT"  of Babylon, and then we need to "STAY OUT."  And the staying out is often as difficult as the coming out. The more we spiritually grow and understand, the more we see our shortcomings.  It is good that God does not show us all of our sins all at once--it would be so over-powering and shameful, that we would have trouble facing another day.  Glad that you have seen the Light.
God be with you,
Ray


Also from Rays paper on;

The Lake of Fire - Part XIV

The Beast Within

EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST

What an astonishing truth it is, that God CAUSES all those destined from the foundation of the world, to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" from the Truth and "leave their first love" before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.

Peter fell away:

"Jesus said unto him [Peter], Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, you shall deny me thrice [three times]" (Matt. 26:34).

All the apostles fell away:

"Then said Jesus unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad" (Matt. 26:31).

"And they ALL forsook Him, and fled." (Mark 14:50).

Paul fell away:

"As for Saul [renamed Paul], he made havock of the church..." (Acts 8:3) [while at the very same time he was "blameless" in keeping the Law of Moses] (Phil. 3:6).

ALL the Churches in Asia fell away after being in full support of Paul's ministry. First:

"The churches of Asia salute [greet] you..." (I Cor. 16:19).

Later near the end of Paul's ministry:

"This you know, that ALL they which are in Asia be TURNED AWAY FROM ME..." (II Tim. 2:15).

Paul warned the Ephesian Elders about the "flock—church" falling away:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock [the whole flock]." (Acts 20:29).

Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT..." (Rev. 2:5).

Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to 'remember from whence we are FALLEN...' Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for 'love'] never fails..." (I Cor. 13:.

Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:8 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.

Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.



ALL SCRIPTURE IS FOR OUR ADMONITION

Why should the Scriptures preserve for us the falling away of Peter, Paul, all of the disciples, all of Asia, and all of the church (Rev. 2:4), if none of these things pertain to us or none of these things will ever happen to us?

I have said many times in this series that there are "the called" and there are the "called AND chosen." We see it in every example: Jesus called Peter

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter... and He said unto them, Follow Me..." (Matt. 4:18-19),

and so Peter followed Jesus

"And they straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED Him." (Ver. 20)

And so Peter followed Jesus for three and one-half years. But Peter was not converted:

"And the Lord said, Simon [Peter], Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and WHEN YOU ARE CONVERTED, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

And later Peter denied Jesus three times in the same night!

The question presents itself: "If we truly had "love" why should we have to "fall" from it or "leave it" in the first place? Ah, herein lies one of the grandest Truths found in all Scripture!

From our first parents onward, God has always allowed men to believe that they are able of and by themselves (by their supposed phantom "free" will) to love God and be obedient to His laws. Despite God's plethora of testimonies to the contrary, theologians and philosophers alike have taught mankind that they are indeed ABLE TO CHOOSE and, ABLE TO DO and to carry out that choice, because they have the "free will" within them to do so. What they have within them is a "beast" that is no more able to choose and obey God than any literal beast of the field.



http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html


Hope this helps...



Peace...Mark

[Lupac]

I guess I just need some direction in my life. My parents are both reformed Presbyterians. (I'm only 18) I've tried talking to them about universal salvation, and other things. They don't seem to be very receptive. (And I always want their approval on everything. Something I'm not always going to get.) I guess I need to stop going to church, but that would really anger them. I'm going to be moving out next year, so I figured I'll stop then. What do you think? Is there anyone here that can help me, or tell me what I need to do?

Edit:

Also, if anyone can help me out with this, it would be great, as it's bothering me.

I also found this site in my search about hell called "New Wine for the End Times". That site still bothers me. (I don't want to look it up to post it, but you can Google it.) It's written by some hick from North Carolina, in it, he "refutes" universal salvation for his own his own doctrine, which is a weird mix of "free will" (He's VERY free will oriented.) Jewish "end times" and falling away/committing the un-pardonable sin/receiving the mark of the beast/rejecting God which is the way to hell. I've never seen anyone refute this guy, mostly because no one knows who he is, but if anyone could help me with that, that would be great.

[mharrell08]

I guess I just need some direction in my life. My parents are both reformed Presbyterians. (I'm only 18) I've tried talking to them about universal salvation, and other things. They don't seem to be very receptive. (And I always want their approval on everything. Something I'm not always going to get.) I guess I need to stop going to church, but that would really anger them. I'm going to be moving out next year, so I figured I'll stop then. What do you think? Is there anyone here that can help me, or tell me what I need to do?

Hello Lupac,

When I was a teen living with my parents, I didn't want to go to church with them either. I didn't know any scriptural truths, I just didn't want to go with them. I wasn't very respectful when I did go, just went to sleep in the pews. My mom didn't like that at all and let me know about it. So I tried my best to stay awake and would read my bible.

We are to honor our parents [Ex 20:12, Eph 6:1, Col 3:20] and obey them. Does that mean you renounce the Truth to please them? No Way...but you do not cause them unneeded grief either. Like my mother told me: When you move out and pay your own bills, you can do what you want.

Display the mind of Christ in your attitude and respectfulness...that will go a longer way with them instead of rebelling and stewing at home. You only have a year left...


Marques

[Ninny]

Good, sound advice Marques, I second that! 
Kathy

[soberxp]

Hello Lupac,

Hi! I joined this forum because of this very question. Is it okay if I post here instead of making a new topic? I'm not sure how to know if I've fallen, or left my "first love". (I'm not even quite sure what my "first love" is.)

"first love"
1.when you were child,below 5 or 10 years of age,you don't know what's hate or human's nature at birth is good.
2.Usually,your first love must be love Parents.
3.pure love,you love your friends or girlfriend OR boyfriend

to me,my first love is love Parents.

[Kat]

Our 'first love' is talking about Jesus Christ this is when we first understand who God really is.  This usually happens early in our church life, though our spiritual eyes are not yet opened, we do realize that Christ is the Savior and we sincerely want to follow Him.  But all who have this first love will find it is grounded in the flesh, because they are still carnal.  Therefore we all will fall away one way or another.  Those that stay in the church turn their love of God into serving the doctrines of man.  But some do not stay in the church and go back out into the world.  But being carnal we really can't help but lose our first love for Christ.   

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few chosen.

So you see "many are called" into the church, this is your first love.  To be chosen you are called, fall away from your first love and then God drags you to Him.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

But none of this is happen chance it is all preordained to happen just as it does.

Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Lupac]

I... I just want to do the right thing. I haven't said anything to my parents about church. I just wanted you opinion. Thanks.