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Romans 1:18-32 Holding The Truth in Unrighteousness
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi there George. :)
LiberatedEagle
Let Job’s testimony speak to you for the Truth that you seek.
Job 42: 1 Then Job replied to the Lord: 2”I know that you can do all things: no plan of Yours can be thwarted.3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures My Counsel without knowledge.’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know .5 My ears had heard OF YOU but now my eyes have SEEN YOU, 6Therefore I DESPISE MYSELF and REPENT in dust and ashes.
Humanity is the 666 anti-Christ. The group you are discerning is the many who are called, which is all of humanity, by contrast with the few that are chosen who are those God Elects by His Spirit to receive His Spirit and converting repentance.
So who is it, which group is it that is accountable for turning away from the Lord. EVERYONE! ALL have fallen short.
Arc
PS EVERYONE is accountable. Only God is Responsible.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 03, 2009, 01:34:55 AM ---Hello Marques, ARC, Phil3:1o, Aqr
I think I could have done a better job with the way I worded my question. Sometimes I write like I think and create another language in the process ??? :) I didn't intend to imply that Paul stated "nature reveals the hidden truths of God" as I actually believe the opposite. I was referring to verses 18-21 when Paul states that men held the truth in unrighteousness though God was made known by creation, even his eternal power and Godhead. It seems that this group of people were held accountable because God did reveal himself to them as verse 21 states: "Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful". Was this knowledge carnal or spiritual, or both?
--- End quote ---
Rom 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Paul states that the wrath of God is revealed against ALL ungodliness & unrighteousness of men...anything & everything ungodly in everyone, not just Jews. Paul then states that God's invisible attributes are clearly seen through His creation. But 'o man' then worshipped what they COULD SEE (corruptible man, birds, beasts, etc.)...this is everyone.
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 03, 2009, 01:34:55 AM ---Ray states in his repentance transcript, posted above, in reference to verse 18 the word "Men" means humans, mankind, humankind, and could almost mean the human race. In regards to the word "they" in vs 21, Ray makes reference to the Church as it's obvious this verse implies a specific group of people and not just man in general. Verse 32 states this group of people knows the judgment of God. Understanding the judgment of God is a deeper understanding than just a knowledge of a creator via things of nature, isn't it?
--- End quote ---
Charles, this is why I told you to continue reading into Chapter 2. This is the backbone of Ray's teaching on Repentance.
Rom 2:1-3 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
These are Gentile Romans that Paul is talking to about how they JUDGE. Paul is not talking about the righteous judgment of God in Rom 1:32 leading into Romans 2. He's saying that those that condemn others DO THE SAME THINGS (in heart & mind if not also in deed). This is EVERYONE...everyone is 'O Man'.
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 03, 2009, 01:34:55 AM ---What group of people are Paul referring to here? I don't believe it's the Gentiles, as my bible infers, because they didn't know God, let alone changed the incorruptible God into a corruptible image; To me the children of Israel fits all of the descriptions in verses 21 -32, with the Pharisees and Sadducees and the rest of the world, especially the church, deriving from them. I understand the characteristics listed in verses 29-32 are the characteristics of mankind in general, but doesn't those characteristics derived from the children of Israel? Like Ray mentions in the repentance transcript "sin begets sin".
--- End quote ---
Again, they know God from what is seen (an all mighty & powerful creator)...but then they choose to worship what IS SEEN.
v25 Who changed the truth of God (the truth Paul references in v20) into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
All have done this, not just Jews and not just Gentiles.
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 03, 2009, 01:34:55 AM ---God showed Himself to the children of Israel first and though they knew God they didn't retain Him in their knowledge. However, the children of Israel were only an example for us that we can't overcome sin without that "heart of flesh" God mentions in Ezekiel 36:26 no matter how much we know of God.
--- End quote ---
Paul isn't talking about overcoming sin in verses 18-21...only that a knowledge of an all powerful Creator exists simply from the fact that the entire world exists...everyone has that conscience knowledge.
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 03, 2009, 01:34:55 AM ---I may be over thinking it. Albeit, I know my dad and most people believe this scripture is referring to mankind in general and not a specific group of people. Thus they used this passage as proof that man has a free will and they choose not to accept God after He has revealed Himself to them which is why they believe many will perish.
--- End quote ---
These scriptures have nothing to do with accepting God and walking in His statutes..they are simply about acknowledging our all mighty Creator. One cannot come to God unless He draws them, and looking around at nature will not overcome the Beast within.
Those who are spiritually blind will hold fast to any scripture that believes takes away the sovereignty of God. Like I said, you can explain this scripture very in depth, but if he believes in the myth of free will, it doesn't matter what you show him. The Lord must take that veil away from his heart.
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 03, 2009, 01:34:55 AM ---Hopefully I explained myself a little better this time. If it's irrelevant as to who Paul is referring to in this passage, whether Jew, Greek or mankind and it's all the same then I'm over thinking it. ???
--- End quote ---
It's just about paying attention to all the words. No where does your father read that people 'freely choose' God in this scripture or any other. But in his mind and heart, he sees them everywhere in the scriptures. It truly takes a miracle to be that spiritually blind and it takes ANOTHER miracle to be given eyes to see. Remember like the Lord says, 'He who has an ear to hear, let him hear'.
Hope this helps,
Marques
LiberatedEagle:
I did continue to read the other Chapters before my last post. I just didn't want to go on and on. It seems that Paul starts talking about a specific group as a back drop then addresses the gentiles and mankind later on. My train of thought is the Jews were the first to blaspheme God. However, I do understand there are none righteous and all have fallen short of the glory and that's what's most important, everyone is gone out of the way.
My intentions were not to gain ammunition to argue with my dad as I almost never get a word in with him. When he does allow me to talk I ask questions and use analogies to explain my understanding of free will. He's been a preacher for years, practically all of my life, so I know it's going to take the power of God to show him the true gospel. I listen to the scriptures they used to defend their understanding and I search them out to see whether I fully understand.
Thank you all for spending time with little ole' me as I know it takes patience to deal with me ;D
Peace and Blessings,
Charles
indianabob:
Charles,
Very good and interesting question. I now have a study goal.
Marques,
Reference your finalizing statement: "Paul isn't talking about overcoming sin in verses 18-21...only that a knowledge of an all powerful Creator exists simply from the fact that the entire world exists...everyone has that conscience knowledge."
Here is where I think we need careful definition. Many deny the idea of universal salvation at some point in time, because they say everyone knows what God expects and we have our one and only opportunity in this life, however short. They then excuse [innocent] children by stating that God gives them life of the age to come without test or judgment such as experienced by all others.
I on the other hand limit the accountability to those who have the capacity to know. So, I would excuse little children below a certain age and people who have no language skills and have no way of communicating what they observe etc. Until they are resurrected in the "judgment".
Have you any additional advice for what I mention above? Is your statement still applying to "everyone"?
Thanks for explaining, Bob
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: indianabob on December 03, 2009, 03:15:33 PM ---Charles,
Very good and interesting question. I now have a study goal.
Marques,
Reference your finalizing statement: "Paul isn't talking about overcoming sin in verses 18-21...only that a knowledge of an all powerful Creator exists simply from the fact that the entire world exists...everyone has that conscience knowledge."
Here is where I think we need careful definition. Many deny the idea of universal salvation at some point in time, because they say everyone knows what God expects and we have our one and only opportunity in this life, however short. They then excuse [innocent] children by stating that God gives them life of the age to come without test or judgment such as experienced by all others.
I on the other hand limit the accountability to those who have the capacity to know. So, I would excuse little children below a certain age and people who have no language skills and have no way of communicating what they observe etc. Until they are resurrected in the "judgment".
Have you any additional advice for what I mention above? Is your statement still applying to "everyone"?
Thanks for explaining, Bob
--- End quote ---
Hey IndianaBob,
The 'conscience knowledge' that I believe Paul is referring to is the fact that we have a Creator, not that everyone has a knowledge of universal salvation. Notice what Paul states:
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
God's might, power, sovereignty, etc. are displayed by His creation which is clearly seen. Paul then says 'they' are without excuse...in the passage above, Paul informs us of the 'they' he is speaking of:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Like I posted before, this 'truth' being held in unrighteousness is not universal salvation or overcoming one's sins...it is a conscience knowledge of an all powerful Creator, with our very existence testifying to that fact. And here, Paul tells us 'how' they corrupt this knowledge:
Rom 1:21-22 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Again, this 'knowing' of God is not His Will and Holy Promises, it is the fact that a wise, powerful Creator gave us life and created ALL that we SEE. But we (all mankind) were not thankful and claimed to be wise but are foolish [For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God...1 Cor 3:19]
v23-24 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
We (all mankind, Jews & Gentiles) changed the glory that is SEEN in God's creation into an image of corruption. Either through the corruption of His laws & statutes that the Jews had been given or the Gentiles worshipping false idols. These lusts were in our own hearts & minds.
v25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Here Paul puts the nail in the coffin: We worshipped the creature/creation (corrupt man, birds, beasts, sun, moon, etc.) rather than the Creator. Everyone has done this because it is human nature/carnality.
Without the spirit of God opening our eyes to things of the spirit, why would anyone worship something they can't see? The question seems absurd now, but that's how the carnal mind thinks and that how it looks to fulfill it's own lusts. The carnal mind will NOT worship what it cannot SEE [the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:14]
Hope this helps,
Marques
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