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Author Topic: Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth  (Read 24667 times)

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Craig

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2006, 10:04:02 PM »

Joe, Joe, Joe, :roll:

Now I know, You, Alchemist, and Alucard, are the same person.

That explains alot! :D  :D  :D  :D

 :wink:
Craig
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Sorin

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2006, 10:05:42 PM »

Quote from: parsonssc
Joe, Joe, Joe, :roll:

Now I know, You, Alchemist, and Alucard, are the same person.

That explains alot! :D  :D  :D  :D

 :wink:
Craig



Maybe I should come back as Dracula. ;)
Hey, I am from Romania. :lol:
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jennifer

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2006, 10:09:31 PM »

Joe,
Thanks for clearing things up!!!!! I was beginning to think that you had developed burn-out from too many questions being asked.
Grace be with you.
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hillsbororiver

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2006, 10:10:11 PM »

Yes I deserve it, a funny bunch we have here.

Oh by the way Sorin do you know anywhere in Romania where I could get one of those cloaks with the high collars for my next transformation?

Do they have anything like a Cloak's Depot or Cloak's R Us with mail order?

Your help will be greatly appreciated,

Joe (for now)
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Sorin

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2006, 10:16:25 PM »

You can try Bran Castle in Transylvania. I'm sure they'll have plenty of cloaks and Vampire paraphernalia there. ;)

Sorin
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hillsbororiver

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2006, 10:20:25 PM »

Excellent
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YellowStone

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2006, 10:46:35 PM »

Hey Joe and all,

I just want clear something up. If I had any idea of the direction this thread was taking, I would have never have posted my David, Joseph Lineage comment.

Under no way, in any shape or form do I question any of the scriptures. The truth that is taught is simple and straight forward; unfortunately, many do not see or find it. However, it is my opinionthat  t is not because of apparent discrepancies in the Scripture. Rather it is because God has willed that they do not see.

I do not want to sound condersending and I am somewhat ashamed of my post.  :oops:

Please forgive my lack of sound reasoning.

Many Thanks,

Darren
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hillsbororiver

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2006, 10:49:43 PM »

No worries Brother,

Take care,

Joe
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Sorin

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2006, 10:58:14 PM »

Yeah, no worries Bro.

Sorin
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SteveW

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2006, 12:03:06 AM »

Quote
And further more how do you explainMark 3:21 about fis family saying he's beside himself as if nothing special ever happened in the past.


You say family, but the Greek is closer to "those near Him".  I have seen that in the ISV, but I do not think "family" is the generally accepted translation for this verse.  Several NT versions use "friends" for this verse, but that too is an interpretation not a translation.  Since Greek has good words for "family" and "friends", why take this for anything other than what is says, those near him?
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Daniel

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2006, 12:05:32 AM »

Testimony of two or three witness here :wink:

I will third the " no worries" Yellowstone :D

Peace

Daniel
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YellowStone

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2006, 12:35:02 AM »

Thanks Joe, Sorin and Daniel :)

I needed that!

YellowStone
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Mickyd

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2006, 12:37:50 AM »

Quote from: parsonssc
Joe, Joe, Joe, :roll:

Now I know, You, Alchemist, and Alucard, are the same person.

That explains alot! :D  :D  :D  :D

 :wink:
Craig


Yep....I figured that out from his first post on the thread.
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alchemist

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2006, 11:28:57 PM »

I know I said I'd leave this forum alone but aparently since the first wasn't enough I'd that I'd add a little bit more to Isaiah and that's it.

In the past two millennia, there has been considerable controversy among Christians and their opponents about the plain translation and the precise meaning of a small section of Isaiah. For many scholars, the crux of the matter is the translation of the word : עלמה, `almah which has been translated as young woman and as virgin.

In the King James Bible, a traditional Protestant translation, the verses in question run like this:

7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Other newer translations translate it similarly: The New King James version says

Behold, the virgin shall conceive ...
The English Standard Version says:

Behold, the virgin shall conceive...
The Contemporary English Version says:

A virgin is pregnant...
Young's Literal Translation says:

Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, ...
Many modern translations concede that the word in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin". The Revised Standard Version says:

Behold a young woman shall conceive...
The New Jerusalem Bible says:

the young woman is with child
The Revised English Bible says:

A young woman is with child
The Good News Bible says:

a young woman who is pregnant
The New Revised Standard Version says:

the young woman is with child
This demonstrates that many Christian scholars, both Protestant and Catholic, prefer the traditional translation of the Hebrew in the context of Isaiah 7:14, while many others do not.

Skeptics argue that this is not a very clear prophecy of the birth of Jesus Christ. For example, (1) what does the "butter and honey" refer to? (One possible response to the "butter and honey" problem: it is a reference to one who, metaphorically, "has eaten good meat his entire life in order to spit out the bad meat if it ever touched his lips". Note that the "butter and honey" reference is immediately followed by the comment on an ability to choose between good and evil; this may suggest that they are related.) (2) Why is Christ, who was sinless from birth in the traditional Christian understanding, described as having to learn to refuse the evil and choose the good? and (3) This passage within the latter translations states clearly that the "young woman" within this prophecy is already pregnant with a child. This makes this prophecy about the coming Messiah Jesus very difficult to explain as the prophecy would have already been fulfilled during Isaiah's time. Some Christian aplogists have attempted to explain this problem of temporal context as: a) the latter translations are in error, and b) the latter translations are correct, but that the prophecy has a "double-application" for both Isaiah's time and the first century.

Skeptics raise even greater questions about the translation of the first verse in this passage:

7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, עלמה (a `almah) shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Christian apologists respond that the passage is a double reference— a sign both to Ahaz that the alliance against him would be destroyed, and to the house of David as a whole that was threatened with extinction. This is shown by the Hebrew which uses "singular you" for the former and "plural you' for the latter. With the former, Isaiah reassures Ahaz that the alliance would be destroyed before his own son Shear Jashub, who was present (v. 3), would "learn to refuse the evil and choose the good".

Ahaz, the wavering King of Israel is given a sign that the Lord is in charge and will help Israel. The sign is that an almah will give birth to a son who will still be very young when Israel's current enemies will be destroyed. Christians often see a prophecy of Jesus in this passage and insist that almah is "virgin". Jewish readers disagree and assert that the passage refers only to the events in the time of Isaiah and Ahaz. (See the Isaiah 7:14 Controversy Below). With no certain resolution, popular versions of the Bible can be found supporting either view. With some noteable exceptions, most major versions of the Bible that include the New Testament translate Isaiah 7:14 with the word virgin and those that only include the Old Testament use young woman or maiden.

Judaism reads the verse in Isaiah 7:14 as:

"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman [ha-almah] shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el". [1]
Judaism affirms that [ha-almah] ("young woman") does not refer to a virgin and that had the Torah intended to refer to such, the specific Hebrew word for virgin [bethulah] would have been used.


Context of Isaiah 7:14 according to Judaism
Ahaz king of Jerusalem was besieged. Through Isaiah, God sends a message. Ahaz is reluctant to accept it, but is told he will get a sign. So Isaiah 7:10-17 states:

And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying:
11 יא שְׁאַל-לְךָ אוֹת, מֵעִם יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ; הַעְמֵק שְׁאָלָה, אוֹ הַגְבֵּהַּ לְמָעְלָה.
'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'
12 יב וַיֹּאמֶר, אָחָז: לֹא-אֶשְׁאַל וְלֹא-אֲנַסֶּה, אֶת-יְהוָה.
But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.'
13 יג וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׁמְעוּ-נָא בֵּית דָּוִד: הַמְעַט מִכֶּם הַלְאוֹת אֲנָשִׁים, כִּי תַלְאוּ גַּם אֶת-אֱלֹהָי.
And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?
יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. 14
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 טו חֶמְאָה וּדְבַשׁ, יֹאכֵל--לְדַעְתּוֹ מָאוֹס בָּרָע, וּבָחוֹר בַּטּוֹב.
Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 טז כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב: תֵּעָזֵב הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה קָץ, מִפְּנֵי שְׁנֵי מְלָכֶיהָ.
Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.
יז יָבִיא יְהוָה עָלֶיךָ, וְעַל-עַמְּךָ וְעַל-בֵּית אָבִיךָ, יָמִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא-בָאוּ, לְמִיּוֹם סוּר-אֶפְרַיִם מֵעַל יְהוּדָה: אֵת, מֶלֶךְ אַשּׁוּר. {פ} 17
The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria'.[2]
Thus Jews believe that God will send a "sign" in the days of Ahaz who lived many centuries before Jesus. Moreover, they claim that there is no indication that Immanuel will be the Messiah, whatever the timing of his birth. The Jewish tradition has accordingly never considered Isaiah 7:14 as a messianic prophecy. Modern Jewish scholars argue that this is a Christian innovation, unwarranted by the text.

Hebrew translation

Meaning of “almah’�
The word almah is not used in Hebrew to refer to a virgin. The word for virgin is [betulah]. [3]

Jewish tradition states that the "young woman" was in fact Isaiah’s wife and the birth of the child is recorded later in Isaiah 8:3.

As an example of how '[almah] is used, in Proverbs 30:18-20:

18 There are three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:
19 יט דֶּרֶךְ הַנֶּשֶׁר, בַּשָּׁמַיִם-- דֶּרֶךְ נָחָשׁ, עֲלֵי-צוּר;
דֶּרֶךְ-אֳנִיָּה בְלֶב-יָם-- וְדֶרֶךְ גֶּבֶר בְּעַלְמָה
The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock;
the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a young woman.
20 כ כֵּן, דֶּרֶךְ אִשָּׁה-- מְנָאָפֶת
אָכְלָה, וּמָחֲתָה פִיהָ; וְאָמְרָה, לֹא-פָעַלְתִּי אָוֶן
So is the way of an adulterous woman;
she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith: 'I have done no wickedness.'[4]
In this context it is argued, "the way of a man with a young woman," [alamah] does not appear to have the connotations of a "virgin."

The article in “ha-almah’�
The word “ha� is generally translated as the definite article “the�. Some interpreters (e.g. the authors of the New English Translation) however believe that its use here means that the young woman was present to the conversation, and thus render “ha-almah’� as “this young woman�. That is taken to refer to either a member of the royal family or the “prophetess� mentioned in Isaiah 8.

Adjective “harah הָרָה â€? and time of pregnancy
The adjective “harah הָרָה â€? is used predicatively. From the narrator’s perspective, Jewish scholars argue that this generally means a past, or present, or imminent future pregnancy.[5] With that in mind, the translation of Isaiah 7:14 may also be rendered as either “the [or this] young woman is pregnantâ€? or “the [or this] young woman will soon be pregnantâ€?.

The Christian interpretation of Immanuel in Isaiah 7:14 is based on the following scriptures in the Christian New Testament where the conception and birth of Jesus Christ are described:

(Matthew 1:20–23 KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (22) Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, (23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Based on these scriptures many Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Immanuel prophesied of in Isaiah 7:14 and that He is "God with us". Many also believe that Jesus was born by means of a Virgin Birth and through the power of the Holy Spirit rather than through normal conception by man.

On translating the Greek Textus Receptus of Matthew 1:23, there is little problem in translating the Greek word "parthenos" as "virgin" which is the usual Greek word for virgin:

(Matthew 1:23 Greek Textus Receptus) ιδου η παρθενος εν γαστρι εξει και τεξεται υιον και καλεσουσιν το ονομα αυτου εμμανουηλ ο εστιν μεθερμηνευομενον μεθ ημων ο θεος

It is from the transliteration of the Greek text that the spelling Emmanuel was introduced for the Hebrew name Immanuel.

Upon examination of the Greek Septuagint text at Isaiah 7:14 one can also find the word 'parthenos"("virgin") rather than the usual Greek word "neanis" for "young woman" strongly indicating that a Virgin Birth is prophesied of.

However, the use of the Hebrew word "almah" in the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible has stirred controversy among a number of scholars and in fact has produced what is known as The Almah Controversy. This has resulted in variations between Bible translations,with some translations using "young woman" as does the New English Translation or NET Bible:

Isaiah 7:14 “For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel.�

And a number of translations using the word "virgin" as does the King James Bible:

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

It is also used as first name among Christians. Examples are Immanuel Kant, Victor Emmanuel of Italy. In Greece the name Manolis is considered a nickname for Emmanuel.
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hillsbororiver

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2006, 12:07:13 PM »

Bobby, a big Amen!

Joe
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Daniel

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2006, 12:46:54 PM »

Quote
the more I read the more the Spirit revealed that all this is useless.


Amen Bobby, You can see it coming can't you? :lol:

The doubtful disputations and the wrestling over words lead to the ruin the hearer.

Unbelievebly this is called spiritual knowledge when its "the letter of the word". The sumersauts involved in these things never cease to amaze me. :lol:

I had to shut off the computer and go to bed early in order to remove the temptation to respond.  :lol:

Good word Bobby

Peace

Daniel
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eutychus

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2006, 12:57:14 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver
Bobby, a big Amen!

Joe




double AMEN here.


not sure what alchy's intentions are?

to prove what???

again i  see:

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


grace to all

chuckt
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knuckle

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2006, 01:27:42 PM »

HI all-----------

Mar 3:21  And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

     some times folks say things that just aren't true

      they SAID He was beside himself.Why would they say that?Why would a person's friends and family say such a thing about another person? Could it have been that His friends were trying to protect Him from the wrath of the Jews?His friends knew He wasn't crazy,but if it kept Him from being stoned.....

   A teenager is arrested by the police,the guy is struggling and the cops are fixin to pull guns out----out of nowhere some of the guys friends and family run up and grab this kid and yell to the cops----"don't hurt him he is crazy,is off his meds etc etc.The kid wasn't crazy,But if it kept him from being shot .........

     
   
   Am I the only one who sees this like this?


   Much love--------knuckle
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Daniel

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2006, 02:26:59 PM »

You mean like this knuckle? :lol:


Mathew 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

Peace

Daniel
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SteveW

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Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth
« Reply #79 on: June 18, 2006, 05:19:22 PM »

Romaji Lyrics
Quote
keshite RIRAITO shite
kudaranai chou gensou
wasurarenu sonzai kan o
kishikaisei
RIRAITO shite
imi no nai mousou mo
kimi o nasu dendouryoku
zenshin zenrei o kure yo


English Translation:
    Erase and rewrite
    The pointless ultra-fantasy
    Revive
    The unforgettable sense of being
    Rewrite
    The meaningless imagination
    The driving force that creates you
    Give it your whole body and soul

Just curious, but how do you relate to this, alchemist?
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