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Author Topic: What's the point?  (Read 2271 times)

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  • Guest
What's the point?
« on: December 12, 2009, 07:17:55 PM »

God is sovereign, our lives are predestined, and we do not have free will, but we do have choices? I can't understand the difference between choices and agency.

If this is correct, what is the point?  If eventually, all are cleansed of sin, and enter Godís Kingdom, whatís the point of being born? Why not start out in God's Kingdom and avoid the mess?

Iím sure someone can clarify this.


  • Guest
Re: What's the point?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 08:43:23 PM »

I understand that God is still creating us.  We don't question as to why and how God creates us for we are only pots and God is the Potter.

Moreover, I like the idea of God putting us in different circumstances first (and not "avoiding the mess") so we can learn and eventually become in His Image, rather than "start out in God's Kingdom" (as in already perfect, you mean?) and do not know how we become like this or that.

-Mijares  :)


  • Guest
Re: What's the point?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 09:12:23 PM »

Hi rdogs,

Here are a few email that should help with your questions. -------

If God would save everyone, because that's His will, then what's the point of all this. I mean with what I have read I get the impression we are just here for ... I don't know ?

Why would God, who needs nothing and is self sufficient, create us, the human race, who He knows are going to do the things we do, then save us all for eternity? Why wouldn't He just make us for what He purposed in the end. I don't know if this makes sense?


[Ray Replies]

Dear Charles:

Of course your question makes sense--it is an excellent question. Too bad that the Christian Church does not answer it.

God is SPIRIT. God is interested ONLY in spiritual things. All this physical creation is not something that God takes great pleasure in--it is but a means to an end. Well, what does He want then? He wants CHILDREN! SPIRITUAL Sons and Daughters in HIS VERY IMAGE!

But, how does He get them? Create them? Yes, CREATE them. But how does He create them. Instantly? No. To be in the IMAGE of God means that we will have the very same CHARACTER AND LOVE of God. Character and Love cannot be created instantly; it can only be developed over a period of time under severe pressure and duress.  And so God creates severe pressure and duress, which produces GODLY CHARACTER.  Imagine creating "patience," INSTANTLY?  Why the very thought is self-contradicting. Patience by its very nature means that something must be WAITED FOR even though it is desired NOW.

God knows what He is doing. Now then, there is a second part to all this. We ourselves would never ever really appreciate the qualities of character, virtue, and love, that we will possess if we did not have to "sweat blood" to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of overcoming some form of evil.  And so this physical, human, temporal existence is as beneficial for US, and it is to GOD.,3002.0.html ---

God is not only Almighty, but He is also all wise, and all knowing, and LOVE.
    Love demands a recipient to partake of that love.  There is no  other God in
    the Universe or beyond the Universe.  God designed the family and children as
    a parable for us to understanding what His plan of creation is all about. God
    WANTS CHILDREN.  But God wants children LIKE HIMSELF, hence the
    purpose for the creation of humanity.
    Knowing "good and evil" is an essential part of "being like God,"  hence He
    creates good and evil for our experience. Failure, futility, sin and death is a
    part of the "knowledge of evil."  It is necessary that we fail in order that we
    may succeed.  God did not complete his plan of "making man in His Own Image"
    back in Genesis.  It was merely the first stage.  What we call "life" is God's
    plan for "making manking into His Own Spiritual Image." --------

Christianity does not give you a straight answer because the doctrines of Christianity contradict most of the truths of God's Word.

There are answers, however.

I will give you some of the reason "why we are here."

[1] A great and wise creator GOD PUT US HERE. He started the human family.

[2] God is not stupid, He had a grand and eternal purpose in mind for making mankind.

[3] God has many attributes, powers, knowledge, etc., that obviously mankind DOES NOT. But, God DOES WANT us to have those same attributes, especially LOVE!

[4] Qualities of character such as Love are not instantaneously created, they must be developed. That development takes a creation, circumstances, and time. And so, God creates all these things necessary for their development.

[5] Although God is GOOD, He nonetheless has a knowledge and understanding of both good AND EVIL. And so we TOO much come to an understanding of both good and evil. Why? Because ALL KNOWLEDGE hinges on their proper understanding.

People say things without ever realizing how stupid or impossible their thoughts or statements are. Most Christians suppose that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, then we all would STILL, right now, be enjoying the beautiful life of happiness and bliss in a fabulous garden of Eden. NOT SO!!! Adam and Eve did  NOT appreciate what they had with God in the garden before they sinned. They had NO CONTRAST to compare it with.

Now here is a key piece of understanding and wisdom. God wants CHILDREN. God is building a FAMILY. Children are to grow up and have the attributes of their parents. But these things must be LEARNED BY EXPERIENCE!  Not only didn't Adam and Eve appreciate what they had, they ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT have appreciated what they had, because they experienced ONLY GOOD.

Try to come up with even ONE VIRTUE, such as love, patience, honesty, goodness, faithfulness, loyalty, obedience, bravery, etc., etc., etc., ANYTHING of a virtuous nature, that does not involve the overcoming of SOME FORM OF EVIL! There is you answer! There IS NO VIRTUE, NO CHARACTER, NO STABILITY of any kind in any one, except he overcomes some form of EVIL.

Now can you see why we are here? Now can you see why there is not only good, but so much evil in the world? It is necessary! God did not put it here simply to make us miserable! God is NOT in a battle for supremacy with Satan. God CREATED Satan. God USES Satan. And Satan too, will be saved after he has done all of his dirty work. God will make him repent.

[6] God is enlarging His family into BILLIONS of sons and daughters.  This life is part of the training ground to be the very SONS OF GOD.

All evil including DEATH itself will be abolished when God has used them to bring His family to a level of love and righteousness that He desires. We will then inherit all that God has and all that God is. God is truly OUR FATHER.

I hope that helps your understanding a little better. Life will not always be miserable and painful as it may seem to you now. This too shall pass.,1493.0.html ----

As these are matters of the spirit, only God can ultimately help you to understand. I will, however, attempt to point you in the right direction.
I realize that almost all people when dealing with this matter of free will, unknowingly use words that are not accurate and often defamitory in trying to rectify God's works in their minds.  We cannot force God's ways in to OUR WAYS.
Yet we have all been guilty of trying to do this most of our lives.  God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
And so here is the answer to your question:
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.,4680.0.html -----

Not having fee will or free choice does not mean that you do not HAVE a will or choices. Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING.  We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN.  The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own.  It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are. NO MAN will tell God He doesn't want to repent when God tells him: "NOW is the time for you to repent, and YOU WILL REPENT"!!,2697.0.html ---

Listen: The future has not occurred until it has occured. Or as Yogi once said: "It's not over till it's over." If the future is dependant upon our decisions that are truly "free" and not caused to happen, then the future cannot be known, NOT EVEN BY GOD. But, since God does know all that is in the future, it is proof positive that there is no such thing an effect which did not have a cause. If an event (an effect)  that WILL happen is both free to happen and free not to happen, then why DOES IT HAPPEN?  If it was "free" to NOT HAPPEN, then why did it HAPPEN.  What CAUSED IT TO HAPPEN against its supposed freedom to NOT HAPPEN. How could an effect NOT HAVE BEEN EFFECTED (that's freedom)?  The instant an "effect" comes about, it has lost all "freedom" to have NOT come about. Therefore ALL THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED was not "free" to not happen at all. If it were, theoretically, NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE WOULD HAVE EVER HAD TO HAPPEN. Things are CAUSED to happen and that Cause is what we call "GOD."  What I have just stated cannot be argued with any wisdom, logic, or true knowledge. To argue against what I have stated is sheer foolishness. Unfortunately, precious few can see it or understand it even though the Scriptures are very clear on it.

God be with you,




  • Guest
Re: What's the point?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 09:17:03 PM »

I understand that God is still creating us.  We don't question as to why and how God creates us for we are only pots and God is the Potter.

Moreover, I like the idea of God putting us in different circumstances first (and not "avoiding the mess") so we can learn and eventually become in His Image, rather than "start out in God's Kingdom" (as in already perfect, you mean?) and do not know how we become like this or that.

-Mijares  :)

Kat & Mijares have answered well, no need for a lot of other words from me, one Scripture to confirm (Note Creating).

Gen 1:27 (CLV)
And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

george :).



  • Guest
Re: What's the point?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 12:54:54 PM »

So, I'm still in training, and will continue to receive God's lessons, until I learn them. Some lessons seem to be presented over and over. I must be a slow learner.
Thank you.

Dennis Vogel

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Re: What's the point?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 01:37:44 PM »

God is reproducing Himself. He had to go through it, so do we.


Dave in Tenn

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Re: What's the point?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 01:40:15 PM »

I don't know too many who grasped this immediately.  I most certainly was NOT one who did.  I still struggle with it, and I know that others do too.  Don't despair.  The 'illusion/delusion' of free-will runs very deep in both our own minds and in our cultures.  It won't die easily.

We can't start out in God's kingdom.  Adam and Eve didn't start there and fall.  We NEED to go through the mess to be created in His image.  Our mess is not much stacked up against what the Lord Jesus endured.

Hang in there.
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.


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Re: What's the point?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 01:42:03 PM »

Hey, thanks Dennis.  As I was reading this I knew I had heard "something" about God going thru some "trials".  I will go to the link and be refreshed again.
I am a quick believer, but a slow learner too and need this over and over.  Thank goodness for "newbies" questions.
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