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[mcmiller]

Hello All,

We have been given some great teachings by both Ray and Mike concerning the parables Jesus used to reveal truths to the Chosen while obscuring the meaning from all others.  We have been told that the entire bible is in fact a parable since every word in it was put there by the one who would ultimately manifest as the man Jesus, and we know that He only taught in parables.  We know that in the parables seed is not literal seed, soil is not literal soil and so on.  My question is this: Do these words that have symbolic meanings always have a symbolic meaning and is it always the same meaning ?  Take the term Rich Man as used in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man for instance.  We know that the Rich Man signifies Judah, or more specifically the Called.  Does this mean that everywhere in the bible that the term Rich Man is used signifies Judah or the Called?  Like in Matt 19:24 …..

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Many interpret this in a literal sense to mean that having wealth makes it almost impossible to enter the kingdom of God, therefore we should all be poor or else we are at risk of not making it.

And again in James 1:11 …

For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

So again, is this just a man with wealth or is it as before pointing to Judah and the Called?

How are we to know?  The same thing with the word earth.  When is it just soil and when is it a man just one step out of the sea?

What really makes it hard is when a term seems to have a different symbolic meaning in different scriptures.

Anyone have a take on this?  I could really use some help.

Mark

[eutychus]

the eye was a door to the city, camels would have to be releived of their
back packs(good)(riches) to be able to get through the door.


interesting stuff.


A popular explanation of the figure, dating back at least to the 9th century, was that Jesus was referring to a well-known gate in Jerusalem called Needle's Eye, that was built so low that a camel could only pass if it entered kneeling and unencumbered with baggage. The lesson would then be that an eternal inheritance awaits those who unburden themselves of sin, and in particular, the things of this world. Although there is no historical evidence that such a gate ever existed, through frequent repetition the idea has attained the status of virtual dogma in some circles.

[hillsbororiver]

Interesting for sure,

 Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I believe it has more to do with the "in need of nothing" mindset than it does money or possessions.

Being poor does not automatically make one virtuous, if you are poor what do you have to give to the poor or if you have nothing how can you be a cheerful giver?

Believe me I have had first hand experience with the homeless and poor, there are many who are fine people who have had a bad run of luck (I know that is not the best way to phrase it) but I have seen selfishness and deceit also, as a matter of fact I remember another person saying how much the same many very rich and many very poor had a lot of personality traits that were common, they could only and very selfishly think of their own pleasures, never considering the effect it may have on others.

I found this interesting as well, in Exodus the Lord did not put a bigger obliglation on the rich than He did with the poor;

Exo 30:15  The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

I also believe that those that have should help those who don't.
 
Joe

[mcmiller]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm afraid, though, that I may have burried my real question too deeply in the body of my original post.

My first dilema is to be able to determine when we should look for a deeper spiritual meaning for words we find in the bible and when are they to be taken as-is?

Secondly, if a term has spiritual significance, does it always have the same meaning?

Christianity has for the most part taken everything stated in the bible as literal with virtually no deeper spiritual meaning.  This is more than a nitche, it is a ditch.  On the other hand, I think we run the risk of getting into the other ditch by trying to apply some deep spiritual meaning to every word in the bible.

Where is the balance, and we are encouraged to be balanced in all things.

Mark

[Daniel]

Joe made a perfect point. There is no virture in being either poor or Rich, if you can "pick it up" you can see through the words used speak of pride and arrogance. Actually the fear of the Lord IS to hate "evil" and that is to hate pride and arrogancy. God resists the proud but giveth grace to the humble. One is judged as Rich, the other Poor and theres much more to link these concerning their "place" and how they are "discerned" and what they do and how they behave.

Heres something for your consideration if looking for the spiritual application.

Prov 13:7  There is that "maketh himself rich", "yet[/u]" hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, "yet[/u]" hath great riches.[/u]

Prov 10:22 The blessing[/i] of the LORD, "it[/u]" maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it[/u]

2Cr 6:10 As "sorrowful", yet "alway rejoicing"; as poor, yet "making many rich"; as "having nothing", and yet possessing all things.[/i]

The "treasure" in earthen vessels

The Lord made "both" Rich and poor. Kinda like an "inflation process" and a "deflation process" (laughing a bit) God knows exactly what He is doing. Its the setting up for the "falling and rising again" (become a fool that one might become wise type thing)

Psalm 49:16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased[/u];


Psalm 49:17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: "his glory" shall not descend after him.


Psalm 49:20 Man that is "in honour[/i]", and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.


Prov 18:11 The rich man's wealth IS his strong city[/i], and AS an "high wall" in his own conceit.[/i]


Prov 18:23 The poor "useth intreaties[/i]"; but "the rich" answereth roughly.


Prov 28:11 The rich man "is wise in his own conceit"; but "the poor" "that hath understanding" searcheth him out.[/u][/i]  :idea:

Jesus speaks of "the evil eye"

Prov 8:22 He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and "considereth not" that poverty shall come upon him.[/i][/u]


Rev 13:17 Because thou sayest, "I am rich", and increased with goods, and have need of nothing[/u]; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: ...Without love one is nothing

Keep in mind "knowledge puffed up" and pride goeth before destruction and "the above" in the Rich mans "increase" timeless truths


Job 31:12  For it is a fire that consumeth "to destruction", and would root out[/i] all mine increase.[/i]  (not rich toward God, His name)


Luke 1:53 He hath "filled the hungry with good things"; and "the rich" he hath sent empty away.[/u]


Prov 23:4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom[/u][/i].

Thinking one knows something not really knowing as he ought, paradox really. The Spirit knoweth all things and these are given us by Him to know. Then theres thinking one knows and not knowing as they ought.

Neat way our Lord words things

Luke 19:26  For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even "that he hath" shall be taken away from him.[/i][/u]

Kinda like "Peter Pan" :lol:  (taking from the Rich giving to the poor)

Think of "My River is MINE, for my OWN Glory and my OWN Honour" Written throughout. Pride and humility is everywhere in scripture.

Peace

Daniel

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Mark,

This is the beauty of His Word, we have discussed this in other threads, the richness, the texture, the layers of Truths that can be mined are infinite.

We can find verses that when taken literally can help us to lead a healthier happier life here and now but at the same time provide spiritual food, giving us meat for spiritual growth, prophecy too can have a physical and spiritual fulfilment being just as true on multiple levels.

The Word of the Lord is more amazing the longer we seek it, I have found that the more I learn the more I am aware of what I don't know.

Excellent topic,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Great stuff Daniel.

Thanks,

Joe

[eutychus]

Kinda like "Peter Pan"  (taking from the Rich giving to the poor)


i thought that was robin hood :lol:    :lol:

yes i too see different layers in scripture.

im thinking three.

babes, younguns and adults???

just thinking though.


grace to you all
chuckt

[Daniel]

Kinda like "Peter Pan"  (taking from the Rich giving to the poor)


i thought that was robin hood :lol:    :lol:

yes i too see different layers in scripture.

im thinking three.

babes, younguns and adults???

just thinking though.


grace to you all
chuckt

Shoot Euty, your right :lol:  I'll tell you I'm really bad at cartoon characters.

I'm feeling really old now. Perhaps I should edit that? No, I'll leave it up for a good laugh at my own expense :lol:

Your right Euty, you got me there, I only remembered the green tights the dude was wearing. :lol: I'm already losing my mind I think (laughing)

Thanks Euty

Peace

Daniel

[eutychus]

Kinda like "Peter Pan"  (taking from the Rich giving to the poor)


i thought that was robin hood :lol:    :lol:

yes i too see different layers in scripture.

im thinking three.

babes, younguns and adults???

just thinking though.


grace to you all
chuckt

Shoot Euty, your right :lol:  I'll tell you I'm really bad at cartoon characters.

I'm feeling really old now. Perhaps I should edit that? No, I'll leave it up for a good laugh at my own expense :lol:

Your right Euty, you got me there, I only remembered the green tights the dude was wearing. :lol: I'm already losing my mind I think (laughing)

Thanks Euty

Peace

Daniel

no worries friend, not meaning to point these out, its just that  i am a peter pan. :oops:

nah, i just happen to see hook on tv the other week.


hey grace and love to you daniel

euty/chuck

[mercie]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm afraid, though, that I may have burried my real question too deeply in the body of my original post.

My first dilema is to be able to determine when we should look for a deeper spiritual meaning for words we find in the bible and when are they to be taken as-is?

Secondly, if a term has spiritual significance, does it always have the same meaning?

Christianity has for the most part taken everything stated in the bible as literal with virtually no deeper spiritual meaning.  This is more than a nitche, it is a ditch.  On the other hand, I think we run the risk of getting into the other ditch by trying to apply some deep spiritual meaning to every word in the bible.

Where is the balance, and we are encouraged to be balanced in all things.

Mark

Great illustration Daniel.


 

[mercie]

Hi Mark,

This is the beauty of His Word, we have discussed this in other threads, the richness, the texture, the layers of Truths that can be mined are infinite.

We can find verses that when taken literally can help us to lead a healthier happier life here and now but at the same time provide spiritual food, giving us meat for spiritual growth, prophecy too can have a physical and spiritual fulfilment being just as true on multiple levels.

The Word of the Lord is more amazing the longer we seek it, I have found that the more I learn the more I am aware of what I don't know.

Excellent topic,

Joe

Joe.

I do believe the layers unfold  piece by piece , almost building a Spiritual vocablary where each word holds a literal meaning and in the same breath a spiritual one, which can also be said of how certain phrases work
by comparrison.

This maybe the reason when somebody uses scripture in expressing a certain understanding its not first seen by some( double de Gook), all relative to how we understand Hellfire is not ET and many Do not  in that God Spirit is one which heals infirmities and does not destroy.


Just seeing one side of the word as using Christendom for example blinds a  greater Spiritual one.

The problem arises when one may only see the literal word and another may see its meaning  by comparing the with the Spiritual   with the Spiritual.

Just FOR  example.

Satan is compared WITH Fowls of the air in the parable of the Sower.

Are the Riches of the Rich man REALLY WEALTH in Math 19,  Could this man just be another pharisee where some may see Him just as a Rich man.




Daniel has given a great example in how we are to see things.



Thanks again Daniel.

[ciy]

The rich,young ruler is all of us.  We are all rich and carnal.  I do not believe it is talking about a gate it is saying it is impossible for man to do anything to enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Saying a prayer, raising your arms, moving a little finger or blinking an eye.  It is simply by God's grace which I know all of you know better than I.  We all must give up everything we have and give it to others in order to give up this life or to give up love of this world.  Show me one disciple or "main player" in the bible that did not give up their worldly life to follow the calling of God.  The disciples were not part time fisherman or tax collectors and part time preachers.  Moses did not hang around trying to stay in the world and the wilderness at the same time. David hung it out there for about 13 years.  Elisha burned his plow and killed the oxen, Joseph prison, etc.  Odd how we try to reason with our own understanding and think well "God cannot mean THAT! it does not make sense I have always been a business owner and I will work God into my schedule".

It has always puzzled me why Paul was a part time preacher with a tentmaking business on the side.  Then to find out that tents can be tabernacles then it made sense Paul went around telling people that they are the new tabernacles.  

One other thing.  I have been well off and I have been broke and I believe that the broke love money and make it an idol before God in many respects more than the rich do.  The rich think they do not have to depend on God for money and the poor depend on God for money.  It is really amazing how God did this.  It is not about the rich in money or the poor in money.  The rich man is the old man and the poor or meek man is the new man.  The bible is always talking about us.  Every character in the bible is us.  All the psalms are about us getting rid of that old outer man who is profitting in his way and we say "how long?"  must I have that carnal Cain leading me.  I hear a lot of people today saying "Now if you are rich you probably are not chosen because only a few will be chosen"  Who is it that says what is rich?  Is $45000 per year, $65000 per year, $100000 per year or if I have $200000 in my 401k at what point do I become rich.  Impossible for anyone to say, but yet many spend a lot of time trying to condemn the rich man when the rich man is us.  The key is to be joyful and seeking God whether you are rich or poor, but the condition surely has nothing to do with whether you one of the chosen or not.

I am speaking to myself here more than you all.  Please do not anyone take this as anything other than me trying to sort it out and maybe some food for thought.
ciy