Topic: Is water baptism necessary (Read 14669 times)

elias3013 · « **on:** December 23, 2009, 12:55:11 PM »

I am a new member to this forum and am trying to learn how to post.

If this is the way, let me start with this subject of "Is water baptism necessary"?

Has Ray ever taught on this? If so what is his position on it. What does he say the Bible teaches?

Thanks

Ron

dogcombat · « **Reply #1 on:** December 23, 2009, 01:04:32 PM »

Hi Ron,

From the BT Hompage "NOTHING Physical Saves"

If you are IN CHRIST, then CHRIST IS IN YOU, and Christ will live a NEW LIFE IN YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, and not through the carnal minded flesh of man.

THERE IS NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, THAT ONE CAN DO 'PHYSICALLY' TO GET SAVED 'SPIRITUALLY'!!

But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and not AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES

... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!

At the conference at Jerusalem spoken of in the 15th chapter of Acts, Christian Pharisees were demanding that newly converted Gentiles must BE CIRCUMCISED AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES. Did the Apostles, elders, disciples, and the whole church under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit conclude that they should:

A. Be circumcised, but NOT to keep the law of Moses?

B. Keep the law of Moses, but NOT to be circumcised?

C. Be circumcised, AND keep the law of Moses?

D. NONE OF THE ABOVE?

It is, of course, NONE OF THE ABOVE. They ALL concluded in complete harmony with each other and the Spirit of God, that new Christian converts were not to be circumcised OR keep the law of Moses. Now everyone knows (don't they?) that the ritual of circumcision was the most important physical ritual in all the Old Covenant, and that that the Old Covenant itself WAS the 'Ten Commandments.'

"And He [GOD] declared unto you His [Old now] Covenant, which He commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13).

You can read the rest here:

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#nothing

God be with you, hope this helps

Ches

Kat · « **Reply #2 on:** December 23, 2009, 01:21:14 PM »

Hi Ron,

I would just like to say welcome to the forum

I think your question was covered by what Ches posted. Here are links to what we have available here at the forum to help you get started.

Check out the forum rules, it will help you understand how this forum is moderated.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

Linny · « **Reply #3 on:** December 23, 2009, 09:57:51 PM »

Welcome Ron! I spent a lot of time reading at BT before coming here to the boards. I still have more to read and I need to re-read as well as the vastness of information is amazing!

You might find, as I did, that the emails to Ray found on the home page at BT.com answer so many questions you might have upon first coming to BT.

Look forward to getting to know you better!

Blessings, Lin

arion · « **Reply #4 on:** December 23, 2009, 11:07:37 PM »

Also a warm welcome Ron from another member who is quite new around here. Most of the questions we come up with have been asked before and answered before so make good use of the search functions and you might find this categorized list of emails to Ray helpful in your search. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html I know that when I started here I asked some redundant questions that were already answered and what I really needed to do was to take the time and the effort to read through the whole site which of course is a great undertaking. I know for me the teachings are far to rich to take in all at once and I have to go back to thiem time after time and I always glean something new that I didn't see before.

cjwood · « **Reply #5 on:** December 24, 2009, 01:47:14 AM »

'diving in the deep end', by reading the list of emails to ray, where navigating has been made available and easy by our kat, is the perfect spot to jump into the water, where you then can come to see there are even 'deeper waters' to navigate into (ray's specific teachings). by continuing to dive deeper into the Scriptures, the Waters of Living Truth become evident.

claudia

darren · « **Reply #6 on:** December 24, 2009, 03:35:42 AM »

Greetings Ron: the only advice I can offer you is take your time. Give your brain a chance to absorb Ray's writings, they are an eye opener. Go slow, it will be well worth it.

Darren

PS Great post Claudia

elias3013 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 24, 2009, 12:10:55 PM »

Thanks all for the greeting and references.

I'll read a lot and be back.

Ron

soberxp · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2009, 04:18:22 PM »

yes,Jesus was baptized by John.
Matthew 3:
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

Marky Mark · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2009, 05:08:28 PM »

Quote from: soberxp on December 25, 2009, 04:18:22 PM

yes,Jesus was baptized by John.
Matthew 3:
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

soberxp,hello.

If you are saying that we all need to be baptized by water that is a false assumption.We as true followers of Christ need to be baptized of the Spirit,not of the flesh.

GW
John 1:25 They asked John, "Why do you baptize if you're not the Messiah or Elijah or the prophet?"
John 1:26 John answered them, "I baptize with water. Someone you don't know is standing among you.
John 1:27 He's the one who comes after me. I am not worthy to untie his sandal strap."
John 1:28 This happened in Bethany on the east side of the Jordan River, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29 John saw Jesus coming toward him the next day and said, "Look! This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 1:30 He is the one I spoke about when I said, 'A man who comes after me was before me because he existed before I did.'
John 1:31 I didn't know who he was. However, I came to baptize with water to show him to the people of Israel."
John 1:32 John said, "I saw the Spirit come down as a dove from heaven and stay on him.
John 1:33 I didn't know who he was. But God, who sent me to baptize with water, had told me, 'When you see the Spirit come down and stay on someone, you'll know that person is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
John 1:34 I have seen this and have declared that this is the Son of God.

Here is an email reply on baptism from Ray. Hope this helps.

http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism

Quote

I want to know what you know or teach on water baptism? I have been going through some of the articles that The Divine Plan has.

I am a former World Wide Church Of God member that has been really mixed up with different teachings. Everybody has different teachings.

So far you seem to have what I Think is a closer teaching what the Word of GOD is saying... Your articles have very helpful to me.

THANKS.

P.S. I'll be keeping in touch

[Ray Replies]

Thank you for your email and question.

I don't have the time to write an whole article on the subject in an email. One day I will do that and post it on my site. But in a nut shell:

Paul tells us that we no longer know Jesus AFTER the flesh. Jesus Christ came IN THE FLESH to lead us INTO THE SPIRIT. It was paramount to be CIRCUMCISED, KEEP HOLY DAYS, KEEP SABBATH, PAY TITHES, and many PHYSICAL THINGS under the law of Moses.

Jesus came with binding laws of the spirit. In Matt. 5, 6, and 7 Jesus said

"you have heard it said [by the LAW OF MOSES]..." that you are to do this or do that, but Jesus said, "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU..."

And then He gave a different and contradicting law.

Examples:

"Swear" under Moses / DON'T SWEAR AT ALL UNDER CHRIST.

"Hate your enemies" under Moses / LOVE YOUR ENEMIES UNDER CHRIST!

"Don't commit adultery" under Moses / DON'T EVEN LOOK TO LUST AFTER A WOMAN UNDER CHRIST!

Get the point?

God said he would write His NEW COVENANT (not a revised version of the OLD COVENANT) upon the minds and hearts of His followers.

Circumcision was so very important to every Jewish man. Paul said "Circumcision IS NOTHING"!!!

So drastic was this change brought about by Jesus Christ, that Paul said that a PHYSICAL JEW of the PHYSICAL NATION OF ISRAEL, who is PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISION in the flesh only, IS NO JEW AT ALL!!! But a GENTILE, not of the nation of Israel, and NOT PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED in the flesh, but CIRCUMCISED IN HIS HEART, HE, A GENTILE, IS A JEW!!! (Rom. 2:27-29).

Now then, with that in mind turn to Col.2:19-13:

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how?] with the circumcision MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: buried with Him in BAPTISM [how? same way! "without hands" or water], wherein also ye ARE RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God, Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being DEAD IN YOUR SINS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened [made alive] together with Him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES."

According to Paul, "How many baptisms are there?"

"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE BAPTISM, ONE God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

Water baptism avails us NOTHING unless we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST (Rom. 6:3-7) with a baptism WITHOUT HANDS--not of the letter and the flesh, but of the SPIRIT!

Nothing that we do that starts in the flesh can add one cubic to our spiritual stature.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

Peace...Mark

soberxp · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2009, 05:12:44 PM »

okay, both ,All roads lead to Rome

indianabob · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2009, 06:47:05 PM »

Hello Ron,

Jeffersonville, Indiana is about as far from me as you can get and still be in Indiana. What are the chances that I would meet a new friend the same age as I am? July 12, 1935 I began my journey toward the "final frontier" and I am still poking along in warp one.

Good to hear from you and hope to hear more.
Please be patient with us even if we seem strange, I'm sure
it will wear off soon enough.

Warm regards, Bob Breyfogle

E. Woods · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2009, 02:10:50 PM »

Quote from: Marky Mark on December 25, 2009, 05:08:28 PM

Quote from: soberxp on December 25, 2009, 04:18:22 PM
yes,Jesus was baptized by John.
Matthew 3:
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

soberxp,hello.

If you are saying that we all need to be baptized by water that is a false assumption.We as true followers of Christ need to be baptized of the Spirit,not of the flesh.

GW
John 1:25 They asked John, "Why do you baptize if you're not the Messiah or Elijah or the prophet?"
John 1:26 John answered them, "I baptize with water. Someone you don't know is standing among you.
John 1:27 He's the one who comes after me. I am not worthy to untie his sandal strap."
John 1:28 This happened in Bethany on the east side of the Jordan River, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29 John saw Jesus coming toward him the next day and said, "Look! This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 1:30 He is the one I spoke about when I said, 'A man who comes after me was before me because he existed before I did.'
John 1:31 I didn't know who he was. However, I came to baptize with water to show him to the people of Israel."
John 1:32 John said, "I saw the Spirit come down as a dove from heaven and stay on him.
John 1:33 I didn't know who he was. But God, who sent me to baptize with water, had told me, 'When you see the Spirit come down and stay on someone, you'll know that person is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
John 1:34 I have seen this and have declared that this is the Son of God.

Here is an email reply on baptism from Ray. Hope this helps.

http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism

Quote
I want to know what you know or teach on water baptism? I have been going through some of the articles that The Divine Plan has.

I am a former World Wide Church Of God member that has been really mixed up with different teachings. Everybody has different teachings.

So far you seem to have what I Think is a closer teaching what the Word of GOD is saying... Your articles have very helpful to me.

THANKS.

P.S. I'll be keeping in touch

[Ray Replies]

Thank you for your email and question.

I don't have the time to write an whole article on the subject in an email. One day I will do that and post it on my site. But in a nut shell:

Paul tells us that we no longer know Jesus AFTER the flesh. Jesus Christ came IN THE FLESH to lead us INTO THE SPIRIT. It was paramount to be CIRCUMCISED, KEEP HOLY DAYS, KEEP SABBATH, PAY TITHES, and many PHYSICAL THINGS under the law of Moses.

Jesus came with binding laws of the spirit. In Matt. 5, 6, and 7 Jesus said

"you have heard it said [by the LAW OF MOSES]..." that you are to do this or do that, but Jesus said, "BUT I SAY UNTO YOU..."

And then He gave a different and contradicting law.

Examples:

"Swear" under Moses / DON'T SWEAR AT ALL UNDER CHRIST.

"Hate your enemies" under Moses / LOVE YOUR ENEMIES UNDER CHRIST!

"Don't commit adultery" under Moses / DON'T EVEN LOOK TO LUST AFTER A WOMAN UNDER CHRIST!

Get the point?

God said he would write His NEW COVENANT (not a revised version of the OLD COVENANT) upon the minds and hearts of His followers.

Circumcision was so very important to every Jewish man. Paul said "Circumcision IS NOTHING"!!!

So drastic was this change brought about by Jesus Christ, that Paul said that a PHYSICAL JEW of the PHYSICAL NATION OF ISRAEL, who is PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISION in the flesh only, IS NO JEW AT ALL!!! But a GENTILE, not of the nation of Israel, and NOT PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED in the flesh, but CIRCUMCISED IN HIS HEART, HE, A GENTILE, IS A JEW!!! (Rom. 2:27-29).

Now then, with that in mind turn to Col.2:19-13:

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how?] with the circumcision MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: buried with Him in BAPTISM [how? same way! "without hands" or water], wherein also ye ARE RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God, Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being DEAD IN YOUR SINS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened [made alive] together with Him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES."

According to Paul, "How many baptisms are there?"

"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE BAPTISM, ONE God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

Water baptism avails us NOTHING unless we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST (Rom. 6:3-7) with a baptism WITHOUT HANDS--not of the letter and the flesh, but of the SPIRIT!

Nothing that we do that starts in the flesh can add one cubic to our spiritual stature.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

Peace...Mark

Hello Mark
Can you explain Mark 16:16? ( He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved )
Thanks EJW

Kat · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2009, 03:59:26 PM »

Hi EJW,

I thought I would post these emails about baptizm for you.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8982.0.html ----

I have always said that we must be baptized. But remember that there is "ONLY ONE BAPTISM" (Eph 4:5). I don't know many people who believe this Scripture. We are to be baptized in spirit JUST as we are to be circumcised in heart and spirit (without hands--Col. 2:11-12). I don't know many Christians who believe this Scripture. We are to be baptized into Jesus Christ's NAME (Acts 2:28); and baptized into Jesus' DEATH (Rom. 6:3-4). But if one believes being baptized in physical water will get the job done, well then, God bless you. God didn't call me to baptize (I Cor. 1:13-17). Until and unless one is baptized with the Holy Spirit, he will only go down dry and come up wet (John 1:33).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3292.0.html ----

Yes, baptism is a symbol. How in the world could being immersed into water be anything but a symbol OF SOMETHING ELSE. People are immersed in water every time they go swimming. What does THAT accomplish in their spiritual life? Immersion in water SYMBOLIZED a persons desire to bury his old self and be washed clean of sin. Just performing the ritual of being baptized in water will not, however, accomplish this. Only if you are baptized IN HEART AND SPIRIT is it of any value. All the males of Israel were circumcised the 8th day for centuries. Did that ritual convert a single Jew? No, of course not. It SYMBOLIZED something that can only be accomplished in one's heart and mind and spirit.

   Baptism pictures something: "Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, EVEN SO we also should walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE" (Rom. 6:1-4). Baptism is OF THE HEART AND SPIRIT, or it is worthless and is no baptism at all. Hope this helps your understanding.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,328.0.html ---------

I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.

   Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.

   Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.

God be with you,

   Ray

Dave in Tenn · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2009, 04:39:27 PM »

Welcome, Ron. You figured out how to post just fine.

We could enlarge the question. Is water baptism necessary for who?

It's necessary to gain admittance into most Christian denominations.

Let the precious babes in Christ be baptized in water. Let those with a Spiritual mind understand the symbolism they are participating in. Let those with a carnal mind believe their sins are being washed away with physical water. Let the infants cry (or be well-behaved) as their parents and fellow parishioners believe what they are taught concerning the rite. Let those going through the religious motions to please others or earn favor with God enjoy their reward.

Let the denominational theologians argue with each other over the questions of whether, by what mode, when, and why to baptize in water. Let the more strident among them sentence, in fantasia, their rival religionists to eternal torment, separation, or annihilation. Let the fearful in the pews worry about the efficacy of their own baptism, or hop from church to church seeking the 'right' baptism. Let them remain babes. Let them lose what Love and Hope they had in those precious early times.

Let them who have eyes to see and ears to hear heed what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Let His people come out of her, this mystery babylon the great and her harlot daughters. Let's ask this question: Is it necessary to water baptize those who are being Spirit-baptized? I'm sticking with 'No'.

aqrinc · « **Reply #15 on:** December 27, 2009, 09:52:10 PM »

Hi Ron,

Welcome to the forum, nice first topic also. Here are some Scripture that can help with that question of baptism. The reason you are here is because your eyes are being opened to understand beyond the basics of this fiery walk through life.

Like other members have counselled; do settle in for a long, bumpy but awe inspiring ride through Scripture, with The Spirit Of GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ taking you all the way.

Heb 5:1-4 (GNB)
1 Every high priest is chosen from his fellow-men and appointed to serve God on their behalf, to offer sacrifices and offerings for sins.
2 Since he himself is weak in many ways, he is able to be gentle with those who are ignorant and make mistakes.
3 And because he is himself weak, he must offer sacrifices not only for the sins of the people but also for his own sins.
4 No one chooses for himself the honor of being a high priest. It is only by God's call that a man is made a high priest---just as Aaron was.

Heb 5:5-14 (CLV)
5 Thus Christ also does not glorify Himself by becoming a chief priest, but He Who speaks to Him, "My Son art Thou! I, today, have begotten Thee,
6 according as in a different place also He is saying, "Thou art a priest for the eon according to the order of Melchizedek,
7 Who, in the days of His flesh, offering both petitions and supplications with strong clamor and tears to Him Who is able to save Him out of death, being hearkened to also for His piety,
8 even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered."

9 And being perfected, He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him,
10 being accosted by God "Chief Priest according to the order of Melchizedek,
11 concerning whom there are words, many and abstruse, for us to say, since you have become dull of hearing."

12 For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment."

13 For everyone who is partaking of milk is untried in the word of righteousness, for he is a minor."

14 Now solid nourishment is for the mature, who, because of habit, have faculties exercised for discriminating between the ideal and the evil."

Heb 6:1-6 (CLV)
1 Wherefore, leaving the word dealing with the rudiments of Christ, we should be brought on to maturity, (not again disrupting the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith on God,
2 of the teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian)."

3 And this will we be doing, that is, if God may be permitting."

4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy."

george.

cjwood · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2009, 12:38:57 AM »

hands-down dave in tn, that has got to be the best post i have read ever, regarding this subject, ever.

claudia

mmijares · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2009, 10:22:12 AM »

Quote from: Dave in Tenn on December 27, 2009, 04:39:27 PM

Let the denominational theologians argue with each other over the questions of whether, by what mode, when, and why to baptize in water. Let the more strident among them sentence, in fantasia, their rival religionists to eternal torment, separation, or annihilation. Let the fearful in the pews worry about the efficacy of their own baptism, or hop from church to church seeking the 'right' baptism. Let them remain babes. Let them lose what Love and Hope they had in those precious early times.

If I may add...

Let them think that they can buy the Holy Spirit by water baptism.

Marky Mark · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2009, 11:46:00 AM »

Quote

Hello Mark
Can you explain Mark 16:16? ( He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved )
Thanks EJW

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, yet he who disbelieves shall be condemned."

Hi EJW.

To be submerged [by Gods grace] in the Truths of the Spirit and converted Spiritually is the only way one will not be condemned [judged].

Peace...Mark

E. Woods · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2009, 01:36:11 PM »

Quote from: Kat on December 27, 2009, 03:59:26 PM

Hi EJW,

I thought I would post these emails about baptizm for you.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8982.0.html ----

I have always said that we must be baptized. But remember that there is "ONLY ONE BAPTISM" (Eph 4:5). I don't know many people who believe this Scripture. We are to be baptized in spirit JUST as we are to be circumcised in heart and spirit (without hands--Col. 2:11-12). I don't know many Christians who believe this Scripture. We are to be baptized into Jesus Christ's NAME (Acts 2:28); and baptized into Jesus' DEATH (Rom. 6:3-4). But if one believes being baptized in physical water will get the job done, well then, God bless you. God didn't call me to baptize (I Cor. 1:13-17). Until and unless one is baptized with the Holy Spirit, he will only go down dry and come up wet (John 1:33).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3292.0.html ----

Yes, baptism is a symbol. How in the world could being immersed into water be anything but a symbol OF SOMETHING ELSE. People are immersed in water every time they go swimming. What does THAT accomplish in their spiritual life? Immersion in water SYMBOLIZED a persons desire to bury his old self and be washed clean of sin. Just performing the ritual of being baptized in water will not, however, accomplish this. Only if you are baptized IN HEART AND SPIRIT is it of any value. All the males of Israel were circumcised the 8th day for centuries. Did that ritual convert a single Jew? No, of course not. It SYMBOLIZED something that can only be accomplished in one's heart and mind and spirit.

   Baptism pictures something: "Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, EVEN SO we also should walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE" (Rom. 6:1-4). Baptism is OF THE HEART AND SPIRIT, or it is worthless and is no baptism at all. Hope this helps your understanding.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,328.0.html ---------

I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.

   Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.

   Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.

God be with you,

   Ray

Hello Kat.

Thanks for the e-mails about baptism by Ray.

After reading them, I am still confused. I don't want to argue, and I WON'T,
And I don't give a hoot what other people believe, I am just trying to understand Gods' Word.

Do you have any idea why, Jesus Christ got baptized when He had no sins?
and why did Peter COMMAND Cornelius and his household to be baptized with water after
they had already received the Holy Spirit?

Yes, baptism is a symbol, So is the American flag, and I am proud to let people know I am an American.
But you don't have to be an American to fly the American flag. It's not wrong to fly the American flag.

Dave in Tenn.
It looked liked Peter thought it WAS necessary to baptize those who were already spirit-baptized.
I'm sticking to I don't know the answer.
Be Happy, EJW

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