Snatch them from fire?

[Craig]

Dave,

I've not been following this thread so I may be stepping where I shouldn't   Or speaking out of turn.

I think I am siding with Joe here but you may be too.  I'm not sure I understand what you are saying completely, if so I apologize.  I don't believe we have any power to "save" anyone.  God can use us to help call those to salvation and can even use us in the "saving" process.  But I don't know of anyone who has or can save anyone else spriitually, except for Christ of course.  I don't believe I can say to myself, "self, I'm going to town today and I think I'll try to save 2 people."  But if Christ is working in me I may become a vessel that is used to call another or help "save" another.  I dare say most of the time if we are living a Godly life we won't even know when or where God uses us.

So maybe we agree here but are just splitting hairs with our use of words and the meaning we are assigning to them?

Craig

[hillsbororiver]

(My response to Dave's post,Dave in black, Joe in blue

Hi Joe.  I hope you don't mind me wading in, and I hope this doesn't cloud the discussion.

Hi Dave, I don't mind a bit!

You asked, in a round-about way, if we now have the power to save people.

Actually I thought I was very direct in stating this question.  

 Keeping in mind always that we, in ourselves, have no power whatsoever except the power of God working in and through us, I have to answer that 'yes, we do, insofar as we opurselves can be saved in this life and current age.'

It is true that we (in hope) are being perfected through our trials and tribulations in the here and now, each one of us in a unique fashion. Paul wrote;

Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Aren't we all anxiously awaiting our Lord's return in the hope the chastising will end? We like to say we are now experiencing the purifying Fire of God's correction, is it particularly pleasant? Don't we pray for deliverance? How will this purifying Fire be felt by those who will experience it in the age to come, will they not also seek/pray/hope to be delivered from it?    

We are entreated to deal with the weak (as I believe this passage is also entreating us) in differing ways.  The harshest I know anything about is the 'turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh', but other less 'strident' methods are surely at our disposal, don't you think?  

Yes, we should be treating others with mercy if we want God to be merciful to us, and by extension our loved ones. Personally I cannot see myself turning over anyone to Satan, or seeking their destruction as I am all too familiar of my own shortcomings.

By the foolishness of preaching, by exhortation, by example, and by fellowship (Rom 1:11-12  For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.) we have the 'power' to 'save' incrementally, over time, those who doubt or are in danger (to varying degrees) of falling under the sway of false prophets or any other weakness, doubt, fear, or failing we are mutually subject to.  That, at least in large measure, is the way WE are being saved, isn't it?

We have an obligation to lead by a patient, godly example, this certainly may be used by God to affect another person but perhaps more importantly God is using these opportunities to prepare us for the role we (once again in hope) will be given as Judges and Priests in the age to come, to actually affect a spiritual transformation in our lost brothers and sisters.

Can we do the work of ultimate salvation right now?  There, I have to agree with you.  Not only do we not have the credentials or power, but we don't have the time!  Right now, it is OUR OWN salvation which is being worked out...yet it won't be 'worked out' unless and until we can also participate in the 'working out' of others.  And it IS the foolishness of preaching that God uses to begin to save the lost, no matter how lost they are or in what age they find themselves...past, present or future.

Amen!


Short version.  We can (and are called to) save others even now...but this 'salvation', like our own, is not complete until judgement and resurrection, or resurrection and judgement.

This is something (in bold) where I must disagree, I think Ray nailed it in the paper;

WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?


CAN YOU 'WIN' SOULS FOR CHRIST?

All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God's Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.

Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.

But isn't there a Scripture somewhere that speaks of "winning souls?" No, not really.

Once only do we find any words regarding "winning souls" in the King James Bible:

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov. 11:30).

This verse, however, has absolutely nothing to do with saving the souls of those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour. The Hebrew word kal from which the word winneth was translated, is used hundreds of times in the King James, but only once is it translated into any form of the word "win." It means to, take, bring, fetch, acquire, rescue, etc., but "win" is a poor choice of words. Besides, spiritual salvation through Jesus Christ is not the topic of Proverbs 11:30. Two New Testament Scriptures:

In Phil. 3:8 we read, "...that I may win [Gk: 'gain'] Christ..." and in I Pet. 3:1, "...they also may... be won [Gk: 'gained'] by the conversation [conduct] of the wives..." The other dozen times this Greek word kerdaino is used, it is always 'gain' or 'gained.' Example: "...Lord you delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained [Gk: kerdaino] two other talents beside them" (Matt. 25:22).

Why didn't the King James translate this: "...behold I have WON two other talents...?" Surely even these translators could see the implications of increasing our God-given talents by gambling with them for higher 'WINNINGS.'

Christians need to get all this gambling terminology out of their heads when it comes to the doctrines of God. Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense.

Salvation is not a matter of a first chance or a second chance or any chance. Salvation is "sure."

"SURELY, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He NOT, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL? (Rom. 8:32, Concordant Literal New Testament).

GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN

"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).

It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:

"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? 'GOD'] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty..." (I Cor. 1:26-27).

It is GOD who does the dragging:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: 'drag him']..." (John 6:44).

It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU..." (John 15:16).

Eventually this will include all mankind:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And all will respond to God's judgments and chastisements:

"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).

And let's not forget:

"...no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).

Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don't GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.

But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:

"For ['for' means 'because'] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! 'GOD'] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
 
Once again I will state I do believe God presents us with opportunities to speak the right words at the right time and that we may be the vessel being used by God to reach another person in the here and now. I don't dispute this. I can say with even more certainty that how we respond to these opportunities is how we ourselves potentially grow in spirit. But I also see prophecy in this message from Jude that points to a time when we have real Godly discernment, are really perfect and free from our own flesh and our garments are snow white in righteousness.

Thank you Dave for your response.

Peace,

Joe





 

[Kat]

If we come back to the verses in question.

v. 22  And have mercy (compassion) on those who doubt;
v. 23  save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

I don't think this is talking about "save" in the manner of salvation, but saving those from falling away or being lured away by those "ungodly people" Jude was speaking of.  Here are the Scriptures from James and Paul both where both of them did use the word "save".

Rom 11:13  Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
v. 14  in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

James 5:19  Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
v. 20  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Just wanted to put these Scriptures back in as it is saying "save" and it means now in this age.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Just wanted to put these Scriptures back in as it is saying "save" and it means now in this age.

Hi Kat,

I find it amazing you can be so absolutely, definitively certain that there are no prophetic messages contained in certain scriptures, to be so positive that some things are only true in a literal sense.

Peace,

Joe

[mharrell08]

This thread seems to have gone into left field.

Craig & Joe...I think you guys may need to look at Dave's thread again, as well as Kat's. I believe you guys are wrongly assuming that we are talking about 'saving souls' or other unscriptural doctrine. That's not the case, we are simply showing from other scriptures, what Jude is referring to as far as 'snatch from fire'.

Nowhere did anyone state that we do this of our own power...no one even used the word 'power'. The scriptures do speak of the "foolishness of preaching to 'save some'"...as well as 'magnify the ministry to convince or 'save' others [Rom 11:14]. This can be done in word or in deed...with compassion [Jude 1:22] or with strong rebuke/force [Jude 1:23]. That's is why Jude likens it to 'snatching' someone.

Why does this have to be 'here & now' OR future prophecy...what about both? God has used Ray as well as us to help people's understanding of the scriptures...and He going to use all of us in the next age to do the same.

Oh well...hope this helps,


Marques

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

I am only speaking of this in the context that it appears to me to be in.  It's not that I don't think there could be a prophetic message in this as well, it's just not what I'm focused on at this time.

Those Scriptures from James and Paul, that I used seems to saying right out that that's what they are speaking of and can be applied to Jude as well.  That's all I'm saying.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Why does this have to be 'here & now' OR future prophecy...what about both?

Marques

Marques,

Perhaps I have lost any and all communication skills. My premise right from the start was exactly as you stated above. This bit from Jude (as with many, many scriptures) has a multileveled message contained within it. I never once disputed the literal I only asked for folks to consider the prophetic or the culmination of the Kingdom fulfillment.

Peace,

Joe

[Dave in Tenn]

So maybe we agree here but are just splitting hairs with our use of words and the meaning we are assigning to them?

Craig

I think that's it, Craig.  And I think that's what Marques was getting at...this word 'saved'.  When I was in church,  I used to think of 'grace' as some kind of spiritual substance.  When it was sort-of holy-rubbed on us, we were 'saved by grace'.  That's not exactly what I believed, but it illustrates it.  I had the same view towards 'salvation'...that it was a thing, and not a process with an end goal.  We 'had salvation'.  As a Baptist, once we 'had this salvation' we couldn't lose it...that way of thinking.

Now I think 'salvation' is one with all the other words the Scripture uses to describe the process of being created in the image of God.  I understand it now as a process that God works in us incrementally.  Dying to self, living to Christ--Being conformed to the image of His Son--and many other ways of expressing the same thought, or facets of the same thought.  

When we are finally in that state of 'being saved' in the ultimate sense, we will give all glory and credit to God because we know that everything is of Him.  There will be no more 'saving' necessary to do.  But while we are on the way to that ultimate state (that is, being saved now) we can recognize that others are playing a role in our being saved, being perfected, however you want to put it.  If they are, I can...by the grace of God.  

Short version:  I understand that there is no 'saved' as in past tense, done deal, except as it already existed in the foreknowledge of God. I understand that we are being saved, perfected, conformed, molded, etc, etc. now.  I understand that our salvation (perfection, conforming, molding, etc. etc) won't be complete until resurrection and/or beyond.  We know that all is of God.  We know that we are servants of God, if indeed we are.  We just don't know yet exactly what 'saved' means.  

Anyway...none of this just fell out of my backside.    All this I got from B-T and Ray Smith, by the grace of God.  I'd truly hate to think I've got it ALL wrong.

I'm not very good at explaining doctrine in general, and not much better at expressing what I really mean in scriptural terms.  Some people are incisive and precise.  I'm a sponge and rather messy.  But I know what's true, and I don't disagree with Joe OR Marques.  Go figure.

As far as the 'prophetic' elements to this particular scripture, I always see them.  Jesus Christ (the author and finisher of this faith) Is, Was, and Shall be.  Everything that is of Him is, was, and shall be.  Now we see through a glass darkly that which was shadow and will be fully revealed.  And when He appears, we (are, were, and) shall be like Him, for we shall (do, and have) see(n) Him as He truly Is (was, and shall be).  Now is a foretaste of what shall be and what was prophecied even as it was being written.  Told ya I was messy.    



   

[Akira329]

Hey Guys,

I don't think anyone is disputing the future application of this scripture.
It was more important to understand its present application before I could apply to future events e.g. the next age.
I believe the discussion helped Emmanuel and myself with understanding what this scripture is saying.

No way am I doubting the prophecy present in many scriptures but "no prophecy is of an private interpretation"
So I needed other scriptures to help my understanding of this section of verses.

I hope this clears it up!!
Antaiwan

[aqrinc]

Just sticking my nose in this, hope no one bites it off. But here is what i found while looking for an answer to a different thread. There are more Scriptures that witness to this, but it is very good exercise to search them out, sometimes there is a huge Gold nugget just waiting for us in The Word.

2Cor 5:17-19 (GNB)
17  Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.

18  All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.

19  Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.

2Cor 5:17-21 (CLV)
17 So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!"
18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"
21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

george.

[Deborah-Leigh]

I only asked for folks to consider the prophetic or the culmination of the Kingdom fulfillment.

15:28  But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, (The Universe IS being made subject to Him through Judgment on the House of God NOW and for the last 2000 years.  WHEN the whole universe has been made subject to Him THEN every knee shall bow) THEN the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.

Is God all in all for us? Are our names written in the Book of Life?

Job 41:1  Can you (we) draw out the leviathan with a hook, or hold down his tongue with a cord?

Until THEN, humankind, Oh man,  666,  Beast,  carnal mind of the flesh, we shall ALL be subject to vanity BUT NOT ONLY VANITY BUT ALSO HOPE. The few chosen containing the deposit of His Spirit as a down payment for the Hope that is within and yet to be revealed shall endure and overcome this wicked generation and despisers of God's Word.

Non can obey God without His Spirit.

A converted heart and mind is what God desires in those who worship him.  L Ray Smith

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, ( Christ has made us free,  not free OF Him but free WITH Him as partakers of HIS Freedom and HIS Faith. ) and do not again be held with the yoke of bondage.

2Co 1:24  Not that we have dominion over your faith, but we are helpers of your joy; for by faith you stand.

2Ti 3:16  ALL Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.

Arc